Wow even without a proper manual

[smokey43]

     Good Afternoon everyone!

          I purchased and have spent several hours with trying to understand everything this incredible plane has to offer. Really great Job to all involved! I'm sure it will just get better with some tweaks here and there. I must say that without having a good Flight Sim Background I would of been at a total loss on how to get around this Plane. A proper tutorial manual like that of the TBM would of been of great help. I am anxiously awaiting Grame from Reflected Reality Simulations on YouTube to pump out his great videos. I learned the TBM and IXEG from studying his Videos. 

          After several YouTube Videos I am now quite comfortable in navigating my way around with the Startup, Planning, TO and Landing. I did my first complete flight just last night and am getting more comfortable as I go along. For the Newbies I would suggest looking at YouTube for various long time flight simmers that stream. Although many don't do everything right or address everything, I have learned from something from almost all I have watched thus far. 

     Kudos to the development team! I am enjoying my purchase as I have from all the purchases X-aviation.

[Muchimi]

If this helps, I found lots of good information on how the plane works here using the 605 model docs on smartpilot.  It's a very similar, if not identical cockpit and the avionics are the same.  Treasure trove of documentation that that solved a few puzzles for me, and I have many, many more to figure out.
https://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOMBARDIER/CHALLENGER 605.html

 

[JJM]

I'm still confused as to why this aircraft shipped without a proper manual. (like the TBM) I've the question in this forum, as well as in comments on Toto's YouTube channel. Yet to hear an answer.

[mjrhealth]

11 minutes ago, JJM said:

I'm still confused as to why this aircraft shipped without a proper manual. (like the TBM) I've the question in this forum, as well as in comments on Toto's YouTube channel. Yet to hear an answer.

Simply put. some Are copy write and therefore cannot be provided. Even if they did purchase on for themselves to do the build it would be illegal to provide one. Which is why some dont have them

[JJM]

46 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

Simply put. some Are copy write and therefore cannot be provided. Even if they did purchase on for themselves to do the build it would be illegal to provide one. Which is why some dont have them

I'm talking about a manual written by the developer, like the one that comes with the TBM900. I'm not talking about the actual Bombardier manual.

[pots]

Maybe the manual would be too voluminous? For example Aerowinx PSX (Boeing 747-400) operations manual is 611 pages, 100 page of it is simulator handling and the rest about aircraft. Challenger 605 docs from SmartCockpit are 630 pages it total. I understood that learning this aircraft in real life training organisation takes few weeks of full working days. So for simulation the best way of learning seems to be from step to step (with different videos, SmartCockpit docs etc).

[Cameron]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:16 AM, JJM said:

I'm talking about a manual written by the developer, like the one that comes with the TBM900. I'm not talking about the actual Bombardier manual.

The product is essentially a 1:1 replica of the real aircraft. The real aircraft has 7,000 pages in their manual. Volume and copyright issues are a large part of this equation.

[JJM]

14 hours ago, Cameron said:

The product is essentially a 1:1 replica of the real aircraft. The real aircraft has 7,000 pages in their manual. Volume and copyright issues are a large part of this equation.

Does anyone read anymore? Twice I've said that I'm not talking about a manual from the manufacturer What I've been asking for is a manual like the one that came with the Hot Start TBM 900, which was written by Hot Start !!! volume and copywrite aren't part of the equation. 

[Ben Russell]

Due to the accuracy, depth and breadth of the systems it is likely impossible to write the manual you want without it being "voluminous" and so close to the manufacturers documents as to border on plagiarism and thus be a copyright infringement. Fair use is unlikely to cover a work that is hundreds to thousands of pages long. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ben Russell

[Cameron]

7 hours ago, JJM said:

Does anyone read anymore? Twice I've said that I'm not talking about a manual from the manufacturer What I've been asking for is a manual like the one that came with the Hot Start TBM 900, which was written by Hot Start !!! volume and copywrite aren't part of the equation. 

I think people are able to read and comprehend quite well. It seems to be you who is not understanding the matter being explained to you here.

[dlrk]

 

8 hours ago, Cameron said:

I think people are able to read and comprehend quite well. It seems to be you who is not understanding the matter being explained to you here.

Cameron, and I really want this to be said as respectfully as possible, writing an original manual that explains the systems would not have been impossible. It is certainly understandable if HS/XA decided not to do so because of the availability of 605 docs and the fact that many purchasers might not have read an original manual. But please stop deflecting by pretending people are asking for the full Bombardier-written manual for the real thing.

@Ben Russell If it didn't copy from the bombardier manual, it's not infringement or plagiarism.

Edited January 21, 2022 by dlrk

[Ben Russell]

10 minutes ago, dlrk said:

 

Cameron, and I really want this to be said as respectfully as possible, writing an original manual that explains the systems would not have been impossible. It is certainly understandable if HS/XA decided not to do so because of the availability of 605 docs and the fact that many purchasers might not have read an original manual. But please stop deflecting by pretending people are asking for the full Bombardier-written manual for the real thing.

@Ben Russell If it didn't copy from the bombardier manual, it's not infringement or plagiarism.

Deep sigh. 

[dlrk]

2 minutes ago, Ben Russell said:

Deep sigh. 

Facts are not copyrightable, compilations of facts are.

[Ben Russell]

2 minutes ago, dlrk said:

Facts are not copyrightable, compilations of facts are.

Human understandable descriptions and instructions of deeply detailed accurate systems only have so many ways of being explained. 

Copyright intricacies aside; how long do you all think it would take for a professional technical writer to author such a manual in a clean room state after coming to an understanding of the systems and how much do you think paying them for such a work would've added to the cost of the project and product? 

 

[Cameron]

21 minutes ago, dlrk said:

 

Cameron, and I really want this to be said as respectfully as possible, writing an original manual that explains the systems would not have been impossible. It is certainly understandable if HS/XA decided not to do so because of the availability of 605 docs and the fact that many purchasers might not have read an original manual. But please stop deflecting by pretending people are asking for the full Bombardier-written manual for the real thing.

@Ben Russell If it didn't copy from the bombardier manual, it's not infringement or plagiarism.

I'm not deflecting if I'm sharing our honest feelings on the situation. Take it or leave it; that's up to you.

You have our side of the story, and we're sticking to it.

[dlrk]

4 minutes ago, Ben Russell said:

Human understandable descriptions and instructions of deeply detailed accurate systems only have so many ways of being explained. 

Copyright intricacies aside; how long do you all think it would take for a professional technical writer to author such a manual in a clean room state after coming to an understanding of the systems and how much do you think paying them for such a work would've added to the cost of the project and product? 

 

If it's not literally word for word and organized in the exact same way, it really shouldn't be an issue.

But you are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you, that a clean-room rewrite of the voluminous manual would be prohibitively labor intensive.

But a condensed/simplified manual wouldn't be. For many, if not most systems, it would be as simple as taking the study window textboxes and diagrams and putting in a PDF with headings and a table of contents. For others, it could be simply writing a simplified description "There are 4 pumps. This is always on normally, these are only on as boosts in auto", or literally copy and pasting explanations given in the forums or on discords into a PDF.
 

Edited January 22, 2022 by dlrk

[Cameron]

5 minutes ago, dlrk said:

But a condensed/simplified manual wouldn't be. For many, if not most systems, it would be as simple as taking the study window textboxes and diagrams and putting in a PDF with headings and a table of contents. For others, it could be simply writing a simplified description "There are 4 pumps. This is always on normally, these are only on as boosts in auto", or literally copy and pasting explanations given in the forums or on discords into a PDF.

That might fly on a product that isn't essentially more than "if this, then that". But, as stated, the CL650 is essentially a 1:1 replica of a real aircraft, including how the computers communicate and come to the results they do. There are SO many variables at play in a scenario that can occur, that the training in real life is many weeks long to understand the systems.

Summarizing 7,000 pages is edgy and even then not an easy task. We are happy the Smartcopilot docs exist, and hope that gets people by (in addition to the Reflected Reality video series and more to come). In the meantime, we are not willing to play with fire from Bombardier, and I hope you can come to respect that decision.

Thank you.

[dlrk]

I'll certainly shut up about it if you're asking me too, but it's hard to see how copying the study pages into a PDF would be an issue.

No reasonable person is expecting you to provide a free type rating courses (or even has time for that).

But I agree this has run it's course.

[JJM]

17 hours ago, Cameron said:

I think people are able to read and comprehend quite well. It seems to be you who is not understanding the matter being explained to you here.

Please elaborate Cameron. I'm not trying to start an argument with you, I'm trying to make a point to you and others, and it seems to be getting misunderstood. What, exactly, do you think I'm not understanding? Allow me to reiterate, what I'm asking for is a manual/user guide like the one that came with the TBM 900.(and most other payware aircraft that I've purchased) Something that would have shown me exactly where the pitch sync button was located, or where the ATS disconnect buttons are located, recommended button/key bindings etc. Thanks in advance. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by JJM
grammar

[JJM]

@Cameron @dlrkThis is what I'm asking for (see attached doc) I think it would've been very helpful to myself and many others. In his stream FAQ's, Toto said a quick start guide would be available. I've seen many questions in this forum that would have been answered by a document like this. In the mean time, I'm getting my knowledge from @Graeme and @totoritko's streams. It's a fantastic aircraft. Best regards, John

QuickStartGuide.pdf

[Graeme_77]

I think the issue is the Quick Start Guide for the TBM, a comparatively simple aircraft, is 45 pages. The quick start guide for a Challenger would probably be three or four times the size. I understand what is being asked for, and it's something in an ideal world I'd like to see with the aircraft too. However to produce such a document is a substantial undertaking and would have added a lot of time to the release.

Instead, here we are towards the end of January with excellent community knowledge of how to operate the aircraft, with streams and videos out there to help, and lots of forum and discord engagement. Lots of people have been enjoying flying the jet for two weeks using the resources we have available. Ask yourself if you'd really want to wait until April for a pdf document?  Yes, finding some of bindings has been problematic, and some parts of the real Challenger operation are not intuitive or obvious, but together everybody is learning the aircraft.

To be absolutely 100% clear, I would have liked to see a quick start guide or tutorial flight too. The developers did an awesome job with the TBM Guide - but trying to condense even basic Challenger operation into a few pages is difficult. 

[Rodeo]

I think a Quick Start guide covering the FBO operations, the various user settings, use of hand signals and perhaps some of the most common issues covered in the pinned topics from this forum etc. should still be considered (even if it only comes in April or later).

Regards,

Tim

[Pils]

36 minutes ago, Rodeo said:

I think a Quick Start guide covering the FBO operations, the various user settings, use of hand signals and perhaps some of the most common issues covered in the pinned topics from this forum etc. should still be considered (even if it only comes in April or later).

Regards,

Tim

It has been, and continues to be, considered. As you can tell, the developers don’t do something unless it can be done right. So that’s where we are.

[Scorpio47]

Even if this is an older discussion I would like to support the request for a more appropriate documentation for such a pricy addon.

What about a tutorial flight describing in sufficient detail the steps to perform to fly the plane from the delivery in CYUL to another airport not too far away?

That would not require a full size "manual" nor technical documentation, just a simple description - if possible with illustrations - of the actions the pilot needs to do to accomplish this first flight.

And that should also not infringe any copyright or ask too much time for one of the developers or beta testers to write, I guess.

Something in the style of this famous series of Guides (Chuck´s Guides) would even be better :-)

Please give the newbies more help to get going

Cheers

Scorpio47

Edited June 29, 2022 by Scorpio47
correction of typos

[ois650]

21 hours ago, Scorpio47 said:

tutorial flight describing in sufficient detail the steps to perform to fly the plane from the delivery in CYUL to another airport

This playlist of tutorials includes a full length delivery flight https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4Kdz8LEFwFknjCuHmysv9FDT0Msve7od

21 hours ago, Scorpio47 said:

just a simple description - if possible with illustrations - of the actions the pilot needs to do to accomplish this first flight.

The virtual FO with checklist provides illustrations of actions that a new user may struggle with

21 hours ago, Scorpio47 said:

ask too much time for one of the developers or beta testers to write

While it may well be possible for something to be put together, most of us on the beta testing team are full time in the industry and any time spent on the 650 is solely flying/testing. 

21 hours ago, Scorpio47 said:

Something in the style of this famous series of Guides (Chuck´s Guides)

Good idea! I will pass this on to the rest of team.