CL650 Included Documentation

[Graeme_77]

Documents last updated 20th December 2022

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1128340285_CL650FMSPrimer.pdf CL650 Operations Reference.pdf 1323904309_CL650ExpandedNormalProcedures.pdf CL650 Checklists.pdf CL650 Checklists - Printable.pdf CL650 Flexible Take-Off.pdf CL650 Shared Cockpit Quick Start Guide.pdf

Edited January 20 by skiselkov
Documentation update to match v1.7

[JJM]

Hi @Graeme_77 , is there no traditional manual like there is for the TBM? I can't seem to find one.

Thanks.

Edited January 11, 2022 by JJM

[Claudietto]

Hi , for the time being, I’ve found the MMEL….all the other manuals are quite hard  to find ( for free..)

Cl600_EASA-MMEL_Rev01 2.pdf

[mrcultureshock]

You can also go to Smartcockpit and look for Challenger 605.

[mraviator]

Jet manufacturers typically do not allow the AFM and QRH manuals to be published online for anyone to use. I have a copy of the real manuals through work (and no, I can't pass it along...). What has been provided by Hotstart is sufficient. 

[dzlockhead]

12 minutes ago, mraviator said:

Jet manufacturers typically do not allow the AFM and QRH manuals to be published online for anyone to use. I have a copy of the real manuals through work (and no, I can't pass it along...). What has been provided by Hotstart is sufficient. 

I'm guessing they want people to pay big bucks for those who use the manuals for training or official flight use? I find it hard to think that someone who is completely unfamiliar with the airframe to know it in and out from just the provided manuals. Hotstart has made a wonderfully complex aircraft here. If any aircraft for X-Plane has ever deserved a full on manual, it's this one.

[dlrk]

Could a go-around procedure and anti-ice procedures (when to use cowl and engine anti-ice) be added to normal checklists?

 

[mraviator]

Just now, dzlockhead said:

I'm guessing they want people to pay big bucks for those who use the manuals for training or official flight use? I find it hard to think that someone who is completely unfamiliar with the airframe to know it in and out from just the provided manuals. Hotstart has made a wonderfully complex aircraft here. If any aircraft for X-Plane has ever deserved a full on manual, it's this one.

They have their reasons. One aspect is that aircraft performance data is a commodity and also provides insight to the (very competitive) performance characteristics of an aircraft. Plus, there is likely a liability issue as these manuals are strictly controlled with revision levels as they are updated. 

TL;DR: you need to buy a jet to go to ground school at Flight Safety, SimCom etc to obtain a manual. They are not just handed out. Although you might be able to buy an uncontrolled copy from Bombardier for (guessing) a few thousand USD for personal use. But uploading that to the internet for general use would likely get you into trouble :-) 

[mraviator]

4 minutes ago, dlrk said:

Could a go-around procedure and anti-ice procedures (when to use cowl and engine anti-ice) be added to normal checklists?

 

For AI, you would typically engage that when SAT is 10C or colder and you are in/near moisture (clouds, fog). Aircraft performance data with CAI or WCAI on is typically limited to 10C. If you run it when warmer, you rob precious thrust (=performance) and may overheat things. 

[dlrk]

Found it on Chegg (https://www.chegg.com/flashcards/cl650-a283a319-6995-47dc-8ca6-268d38b4b72a/deck)

 

Looks like cowl a/i should be on below 10 with visible moisture and wing a/i should be on below 5 with visible moisture

[adf714]

I would really like to see a user manual that elaborates on some non-aircraft specific features, like the HotStart FBO and such.

[jeffreymg]

I also would like to see a manual. I also would like to a cockpit guide for all the switches and buttons. When you use the checklist you have to know where everything is.

 

jeffg

 

 

 

[dlrk]

I believe a couple errors (typos) exist in the operations reference. "Flaps 20/Gear Down/Single Engine" speed is written "Vref +14 +5". Looking at the included checklist for a single engine landing, I think this should be "Vref +15". I also think (let me know if I'm mistaken, please), the "min maneuvering" speeds should be "max maneuvering" speeds.

[HussamAli]

21 hours ago, jeffreymg said:

I also would like to see a manual. I also would like to a cockpit guide for all the switches and buttons. When you use the checklist you have to know where everything is.

 

jeffg

 

 

 

Agreed. A full manual that provides more insight to the location of buttons, sequence of checklist items, photographs, and a guide to various systems like the fueling system, etc.  this provided documentation assumes the users are familiar with CL60 aircraft !

 

[HussamAli]

Is there any place where I can purchase an AFM for the CL650 ?

[Captain_Crow]

https://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOMBARDIER/CHALLENGER 605.html

A source for some stuff

Best

Steff

[Claudietto]

It is quite a shame to provide an aircraft/add on with a “failure menu” and do not provide any manual-clue-reference on how to accomplish such failures ….Most of the typical “hot start customers” are Real Life Pilots or , at least, in depth aviation enthusiast…..executing a single engine missed approach or a dual generator failure just “guessing “ what to do  is simply useless. I’d rather spend 50$ less and have a simple aircraft addon which only give the chance to go for a normal flight from “A to B”….maybe in cavok conditions 

[Graeme_77]

11 minutes ago, Claudietto said:

It is quite a shame to provide an aircraft/add on with a “failure menu” and do not provide any manual-clue-reference on how to accomplish such failures ….Most of the typical “hot start customers” are Real Life Pilots or , at least, in depth aviation enthusiast…..executing a single engine missed approach or a dual generator failure just “guessing “ what to do  is simply useless. I’d rather spend 50$ less and have a simple aircraft addon which only give the chance to go for a normal flight from “A to B”….maybe in cavok conditions 

That's understandable. If the product doesn't suit the kind of simulation you are interested in then it's great there are other addons that suit your needs better. Simulation isn't a game of "collect them all" - some products fit some people, others don't, and it's great to have variety.

Regarding the failure system, some of the testers and consultants have been working on training scenarios, including handling notes and extracts from the abnormal procedures for the aircraft. The intention is to develop this over the life of the product to use the failure system to train sim pilots on Challenger 650 operation, just like real life pilots are trained at recurrent simulator visits. 

[BlackBird_GR]

In Challenger_manuals a user upload complete manuals for 605 (quite similar to 650)

[dzlockhead]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:26 PM, mraviator said:

They have their reasons. One aspect is that aircraft performance data is a commodity and also provides insight to the (very competitive) performance characteristics of an aircraft. Plus, there is likely a liability issue as these manuals are strictly controlled with revision levels as they are updated. 

TL;DR: you need to buy a jet to go to ground school at Flight Safety, SimCom etc to obtain a manual. They are not just handed out. Although you might be able to buy an uncontrolled copy from Bombardier for (guessing) a few thousand USD for personal use. But uploading that to the internet for general use would likely get you into trouble :-) 

Ooooh, I never would have guessed that the performance characteristics would be so confidential. I would have thought that, as you said because they are so competitive, that one would be happy to show off that information to quantitatively show why their aircraft is better than their competitors.

[Claudietto]

“That's understandable. If the product doesn't suit the kind of simulation you are interested in then it's great there are other addons that suit your needs better. Simulation isn't a game of "collect them all" - some products fit some people, others don't, and it's great to have variety.

Regarding the failure system, some of the testers and consultants have been working on training scenarios, including handling notes and extracts from the abnormal procedures for the aircraft. The intention is to develop this over the life of the product to use the failure system to train sim pilots on Challenger 650 operation, just like real life pilots are trained at recurrent simulator visits“

 

…Graeme_77….I’ve probably failed to express myself correctly. Please accept my apologies for that.
The fact that you had “testers and consultants “ that helped HOT START develop this add on “by the book” it is simply no doubt!….Anyway look at “BlackBird_GR “ answer. That is what I ( tried..) to get. I only asked some ( legal..) way to give us customers a way to put our hands on some sort of FCOM/Manuals/QRH.

I’m an Airline Pilot and I don’t care flying a single engine approach or dealing with loss of Hydraulic system simply “guessing “ or trying to “figure out” the  solution. The only approach I have to the so called “abnormal/emergency scenarios “ is through the study-interpretation of the books/manuals. And I don’t care if such books are current or experied. I simply need something to rely on when dealing with an Emergency…..anyway BlackBird_GR has already answers and sorted out the whole tread.So it is no point discuss this thread any further.

Anyway please understand that I allow myself to criticize you only because I know you’re the best decelopers for XPlane so far. Rest assured thanks for this amazing add on please keep updating this amazing aircraft:-)

[air737ng]

Hello everybody,

Any idea on when will be ready the flying start manual (to explain how to refuel, all buttons required to be mapped, ground services & FBO guide, How to manage the payload, etc...) ?

Thank you so much, 

Have a nice day.

PS: Very beautiful aircraft, hard coded (by the book), very nice FPS, and graphics are amazing, very nice job HOTSTART  

[Graeme_77]

It’s not a manual, but I’ve addressed the fuelling stuff and basic FBO interaction in my first video, which shows the initial procedures, up to the point you’d transfer to the simulated FO. 25 minutes or so that should help any new 650 driver get started, further videos will follow too.

 

[Stevens]

So Graeme, sorry, I have to disagree. Of course this product is state of the art, a exact replica of the real thing. That's the reason why we all bought it!

But we also want to use it and we don't want to wait until you publish the next video to get randomly more insight into the systems of this aircraft.

When I buy such a great piece of realistic  functioning aircraft, I need to have a MANUAL that I can study and learn how to correclty operate this thing.

I don't understand why you don't answer at any point to the main question in this threat: Is there a manual coming?

If it is in the making, all right. I can imagine how complex it is to do and to write everything down. But I really miss any comment by your side.

I am tired already of asking questions here in the forum about system behaviour. Everybody is guessing. Nobody knows exactly.

The answer is not to get a real manual of the CL605, because it is close to the 650. We need an operating handbook that we are able to study of this Hotstart Challenger 650 as it was programmed by your company.

Today I asked myself how to get the magenta speed target in the PFD. I assume it is related to VNAV, but I don't know, but I would like to know, otherwise I don't need to buy such an advanced programmed aircraft. I had the magenta speed bug once by accident. Tried to reproduce it on the next flight, no chance! I had only the blue selected speed target, no matter what.

So is it the goal to trial and error or what is your answer to the question: Do we get a manual for this aircraft?

I totally agree to Claudietto. There is no need to apologize. We just asking questions we like to have answered.

Don't get us wrong. We love this bird. All the guys who bought it want to dig in deeply. But we can't do! There's a piece missing!

Guess you buy a new car, drive home and realize you don't have any manual! Only checklists! What would you think?

I think, you would call the car company immediately, right?

I hope we get an answer to the threat question this time...

Edited January 13, 2022 by Stevens

[Cameron]

20 hours ago, Stevens said:

But we also want to use it and we don't want to wait until you publish the next video to get randomly more insight into the systems of this aircraft.

You could be a little more appreciative of the time @Graeme_77 has put forward to try and help you learn this product...free of charge on his behalf.

20 hours ago, Stevens said:

I don't understand why you don't answer at any point to the main question in this threat: Is there a manual coming?

There is not likely to be something like an FCOM found with a real aircraft. Bombardier owns this material and sells it for thousands of dollars, or included with a $30 million purchase. We are not authorized to re-distribute this at all. It's 7,000 pages too, by the way.

20 hours ago, Stevens said:

I am tired already of asking questions here in the forum about system behaviour. Everybody is guessing. Nobody knows exactly.

Along with @Graeme_77, there is also several video series of operating the aircraft complete with explanations by @skiselkov. Most customers have taken to this to learn the product and get along quite well. I do not expect anyone to understand everything here in a day, but exploring and learning through watching the series is rewarding.

20 hours ago, Stevens said:

The answer is not to get a real manual of the CL605, because it is close to the 650. We need an operating handbook that we are able to study of this Hotstart Challenger 650 as it was programmed by your company.

This is the answer we are able to give you now. Your impatience is evident, so there's your "right now" answer.

20 hours ago, Stevens said:

Guess you buy a new car, drive home and realize you don't have any manual! Only checklists! What would you think?

I have never once looked through any manual for any car I have bought. This is probably not a great example. Ironically for things like this I'd default to YouTube, of which there's also a ton of livestream content to soak in as well for the 650.

@Graeme_77 is a volunteer of his time. Please be respectful of his willingness to assist you considering he is not officially a Hot Start developer. He's an extremely knowledgable, kind person who is trying to help you and was gracious enough to help beta test this product before it went to market. He receives no money from this product.

 

There's enough info in this thread to lock it for the time being. Please, use the free training videos out there at your leisure and learn best you can. If you are unable to make sense of something, post here and any of us will be happy to further explain things to you short of sending you thousands of dollars worth of copyrighted Bombardier manuals.