The old X-Plane

[Hampster]

Hello!

I have been doing X-plane for 5 or so years, and the change to the community has been massive to a great extent.

If you look back, say a couple of years, Planes were posted on the Org only once a day and when they were they were built in planemaker and of very high quality... Now, it is either 3D cockpit or nothing, people want super grunty over the top aircraft that, although great, take away the talent of the average planemaker developer.

The community was smaller and more freindly, with a few people chatting here and there, but not 20 posts a minute as we have today. And X-plane was a hobby and not a massive buisness venture.

Making 2D cokcpits is an art, and is this all going to be lost?

(Below is one of my best 2D cockpits, the remains of the abandoned P-51 project two years ago)

I think that the aircraft that had so much time put into them are going to get swallowed up by the overcrowded and over detailed world of X-Plane we have today, do you think this too? Or am i just not accepting the change that is X-Plane 10?

-Hammy

[chris k]

We have been overrun with the swaddled masses of the proletariat.

It's gone mainstream... and we get all that is associated with that. No longer a niche product.

Reminds me of the Internet from 1990-1994; all nice, clean, fast, no stray probe packets, etc.......... then *SOMEONE* Told all the WIndows users about it in 1995 (wasn't me!), and it went to crap =)

- CK.

[Hampster]

I guess so, the only thing you can't change is change I guess....

[Ben Russell]

I'm just gunna be blunt...

2D panels suck.

[chris k]

2D panels suck.

Agreed...

....Now that we actually *have* a not-so "completely-broken-unusable-and-clumbsy-wtf?" way of quickly navigating inside a 3D Cockpit as of XP10.4B2+

=)

- CK.

[GrahamH]

In my opinion, 2d panels are convenient, but make the overall experience less realistic. The best and newest 2d panel would be Samen's a340-600, and it's very easy to use, but doesn't feel quite as real as searching for controls in 3d cockpit mode.

Personally, I look for a 3d panel in all quality files.

[Hampster]

I guess I am thinking the right thing... no 3D, not a good plane... kinda sad for those who put a load of work into something that truns out to be worthless

[GrahamH]

I guess I am thinking the right thing... no 3D, not a good plane... kinda sad for those who put a load of work into something that truns out to be worthless

Not true!

Look at EADT x737, XPPS a330 and a340, and qpac a320. All some of the best airliners in x-plane. I like your planes Hampster, and meant not to discourage you.

[larjeet]

back in the day when I was using FS9 on very underpowered PC's I found that 2D panels looked more realistic and increased performance but these days 2D panel view tends to be a locked 3D panel and 3D panels have got alot more photo realistic . I can see where true 2D panels could have there place with Simmers that fly alot of IFR through intense weather . But for every day flying using a hatswitch or headtracking system and enjoying the extreme scenery 3d cockpits are where its at.

[Simmo W]

That's progress for you. 2d was good for its time. Things and hardware have moved on.

But really well done 2d displays can still be fine, like the x737, ESP with a great FM. Similarly with Greg's F16. Go on, admit it, you cant wait for it to be 3D though!

[karingka]

Yeah. 2d panels were excellent, and some still are. But 3d panels are much more fun, realistic, and therefore x-plane is moving on. Hampster, I think it's the type of planes you make that aren't that popular, not the panel. Go make an f16 or something like that with a great 2d panel and i'm sure people will love it.

[hobofat]

I guess I am thinking the right thing... no 3D, not a good plane... kinda sad for those who put a load of work into something that truns out to be worthless

Not true. I'll take a model with realistic flight behavior (within the constraints of a desktop simulator of course) and a well-done 2D panel over a crap 3d plane any day of the week.

Unfortunately there are few 2D panels I've found in X-Plane that suit my tastes. I find most of them difficult to read, with too much crammed in there. The only 2D panel I flew consistently was not for X-Plane, it was the Digital Simulations Fokker 100 for FS9/FSX.

Do I prefer 3D? Yes, IF the whole product is well made and of high quality. The amount of work required to meet that standard more or less means it will be a payware product. At this point I more or less expect my payware models to be fully 3D.

Freeware is a whole different story. I'm not a customer at that point, just the beneficiary of the good will of a simulator enthusiast.

[Warmbrak]

Hampster, you do bring up a valid point in that there are some very good older assets in the registry. Maybe it would be worthwhile for newcomers that want to build aircraft for X-Plane, to perhaps undertake a "modernization" exercise on an older resource rather than just starting from scratch (with approval of the original author of course).

I am unfortunately a virtual cockpit snob - I would love to fly the x737, but I'm not touching anything with a 2D panel only.

Once you've switched to HDTV, it is hard going back (even though the content is the same, or even better).

[Kaphias]

Yawn, the 3D pit discussion again. All you need to know: 2D cockpits are more realistic unless you have TrackIR and a multi-screen setup.

[Kesomir]

Thing I hate most about 3d panels in x-plane are those that do the 4:3 and widescreen support and place you between the pilot and copilot seats, perched up on the throttles peeking out the middle of the wide window with all the instruments in front of you.

A 3D pit places you properly in either left or right seat.

[Dozer]

With v9.70 and PilotView and a bunch of preset camera positions, I don't have a complaint with the 3d cockpit anymore. Being unable to navigate all the panels of Tom's MU-2 (3d cockpit) as easily as I could go through all the popup 2d panels on my favourite FS9 aircraft put me off X-Plane when I first tried it in 2009ish. PilotView's camera preset commands saved the day. I use the numpad to pan and tilt the camera and the hatswitch to move it - I find that most convenient as the numpad is next to the mouse.

If you're making an aircraft because you like making an aircraft, go right ahead and use whichever technique you prefer and who cares what the rest of the community is making or using?

If you like making aircraft because you want other people to enjoy using it, there will always be people who appreciate flying the particular aircraft you've modelled. I like Brett Sumpter's Berkut 540 for that reason, it captured my imagination when I was in my teens.

But if you want to make an aircraft which matches the quality of the best available, you'll either need to work as part of a team of specialists or put years of single-minded devotion to your project. Look at Guy Montagu-Pollock's Comet to see what one person can do over five years - the entire project is his own work, except for a plugin which more accurately models the engine thrust. Flight model, 3d mesh, animations, textures - all to top standards. His 3d cockpit began as something to produce the background bitmap for the 2d panel - now it has animated 'ENGAGED' signs on the toilet doors...

I think I've found my niche writing plugins. A little bit of utility plugin can make the life of the animators a lot easier, when they can have datarefs and commands which do exactly what they need instead of relying on extremely convoluted nested animations and vanishing manipulators.

[Maniac12]

I like 3D cockpits more also, BUT! If 2D cockpit is nice, not messed up and every button is recognisable, I like them more. In payware planes, they are expected (well for me anyway). I am learning making 3D cockpits, and I can tell you guys, It's really hard. And it's not beacouse Im just 13, but beacouse its really really REALLY hard!

Cheers!

[The Mad Professor]

Guys I spent considerable time and energy creating 2D cockpits that were not messed up but were fully functional to give the user the feel he was in the real craft. It took me longer to do this than it would to create a virtual cockpit. But it seems the end users prefer a VC over 2D.

Edited February 23, 2012 by The Mad Professor

[Hampster]

Guys I spent considerable time and energy creating 2D cockpits that were not messed up but were fully functional to give the user the feel he was in the real craft. It took me longer to do this than it would to create a virtual cockpit. But it seems the end users prefer a VC over 2D.

Agreed.

[steven winslow]

I wouldn't say 2D panels suck. 3D panels are prettier, for sure, but for those of us running older or slower machines, 2D pits are what we have to fly to have a decent flight experience. All the aircraft at my VA are 2D panels. We have concentrated more on accurate flight model than we have on the eye candy. While I enjoy all of my payware with their "pretty" 3D pits, I still enjoy flying all of our 2D pits just as much.

[chris k]

I always adjust my 2D panels using a graphical editor to get them to "fit" exactly where I want on the screen (so I'm not looking over the throttles).

One can also customize one's cockpit, to include things like a new clock. i.e.:

Note how my center view is on the left-side. Use this panel.png and put it in your x737's cockpit/-PANELS- directory for a better 2D (cut for 16:10 aspect ratio)

- CK.

Edited March 3, 2012 by chris k

[karingka]

Dude, nice bling!

[larjeet]

Is that wat you call a hat switch?

[Hampster]

Nice one ... Bro!

Edited March 3, 2012 by Hampster

[Dozer]

On the subject of 2d panels, is there any way to pan them gradually? One freeware aircraft I've installed offers a choice of a view through the windscreen, or a view showing the HSI and other nav instruments, but not both at once. Using the up/down cursor keys the panel moves all the way up, or all the way down, with no option to stop it in the middle and see the important instruments and the runway at the same time.

An absolutely critical failing of 2D pits is the lack of space for panels other than the pilot's main panel and the engine instruments panel. In MSFS it was very easy to have popup 2D panels for the overhead, pedestal, radio stack, flight engineer's panels, specialist navigation instruments etc. X-Plane never had this functionality, and it seems the only way to add it is with complicated plugins. Otherwise, if you're making a complex multicrew aircraft, you have to cram everything into one big square bitmap. To go back to the Comet again, it had a 2D panel early in its development:

http://www.dh-aircra...6deb2d3-35.html

Then it had a 3D interior, initially just to provide background textures for the 2D pit. The 3D pit rapidly overtook the 2D one and see where it is now:

http://www.dh-aircra...ag-cockpit.html

The Comet predates modern ideas about flight deck ergonomics and necessary controls and instruments are scattered all over the place, but using PilotView's presets it's very easy to quickly find anything.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Dozer