The B737 Classic Project

[Cameron]

And you are just a bit naive if you think that a simulation can be perfect ;-)

 

The only person who brought any mention about perfect is you. Not developers.

 

You may say the Saab is not perfect (somehow HDR is more important than an accurate simulation and design aspect to you). You may say PMDG is not perfect. That's your right, but the important factor in this is: neither of these projects released as you suggest this to. Maybe perfection is not the goal. Completion is, and that's not for you to decide.

 

I think it's time to give this a rest and let the topic do what it's intended to.

[frankbyte]

The only person who brought any mention about perfect is you. Not developers.

No, it was Kris, just read about it. Whatever i agree that we close this discussion, since such disussions are too sensitive as we can see.

Edited September 28, 2013 by frankbyte

[Cameron]

Whatever i agree that we close this discussion

 

Thanks!

[tkyler]

Ok....Here's a few in-progress shots just to feed the hungry and prove our time is well spent.    We are texturing and adding detail in the cockpit and cabin.  There is still some programming to be sewn up though so we've a few months yet...not sure how many and I won't say because I don't know.  We move steadily and you can see form the exterior/interior shots we're are plodding along.   We are absolutely insistent on maximum immersion visually and audibly and it just takes a while.

 

Tom Kyler

IXEG / Laminar

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2013 by tkyler

[KAPTEJNLN]

Thanks for the info (awenser Tom Kyler) and the pictures looks grate.. and i feel a bit sorry i some how got the forum running like that.

 

Best regards L.N. 

[Morten]

Just to make it clear, the highest priority in this project is making this aircraft as realistic as possible from a PILOT  and ENGINEERING point of view.

In plain text that means that any real 737 pilot should feel right at home sitting in the pilots seat and everything in the cockpit should look, feel, behave and sound as expected and the

aircraft perform as it should.  Like the big real simulators.  To us this is the what makes the basis for good flight simulation, and we will make a minimum of compromises and as few loose ends as possible

in these areas before any release.  This is also because the systems complexity we expect a majority of "bugreports" to be user error, so if we release too soon it will

just slow down the development process chasing ghosts and spending time (which we don't have a lot of as you know) on customer support.

 

As for everything else (like what the big real simulators don't have) - gaming perspective "nice to have" category bells and whistles - it is likely we will release before all this is complete.

 

M

Edited September 29, 2013 by Morten IXEG

[pryoski]

Posted Today, 07:50 AM

Of course. But guys, don't forget that perfection doesn't exist in the sim, even the PMDG 777 isn't perfect. And Cameron, wont like me (once again), but even the Saab isn't perfect. So just relax, ..

 

Actually Frankenfurter .. it was you

 

Posted Today, 07:04 PM

Just to make it clear, the highest priority in this project is making this aircraft as realistic as possible from a PILOT  and ENGINEERING point of view.

In plain text that means that any real 737 pilot should feel right at home sitting in the pilots seat and everything there should look, feel, behave and sound as expected and the

aircraft perform as it should.

 

Bravo Morten!

 

IMO, like it or not, whatever an individual's take on Gizmo, Linux or Windows might be ... it's undeniable, the combination of ALL these factors that make an X-Aviation product experience has set a standard ... that leave others tumbling in it's wake.

 

OK .. I've got a bit of a skinful @ the moment ... on Ballandean's finest red .. but by jingo, I swear that the upward moving trajectory began with the Moo and it's been a consistent theme from that point forward. I raise my glass to you guys! Sometimes it feels that X-Aviation is an oasis in dry lonely desert ... Here's to talent unleashed ... Cheers!

Edited September 29, 2013 by Kris Pryo

[Hueyman]

Ok....Here's a few in-progress shots just to feed the hungry and prove our time is well spent.    We are texturing and adding detail in the cockpit and cabin.  There is still some programming to be sewn up though so we've a few months yet...not sure how many and I won't say because I don't know.  We move steadily and you can see form the exterior/interior shots we're are plodding along.   We are absolutely insistent on maximum immersion visually and audibly and it just takes a while.

 

Tom Kyler

IXEG / Laminar

 

 

Hey Tom !

 

Really, what you said and show us here really makes me angry and want to cry, I'm so desperate ...

 

Because, I'm a GA and Helicopter kind of guy, loving the pure feeling of flying VFR and sometimes IFR ... but with your work IXEG, you will force me to deeply learn the 737 systems, and that is torture ( I know what I mean I am about half of the 650+  pages manual of the DCS A-10C Warthog ... )

 

That is torture and you leave us no option, but reading your ( probably ) 1000+ page manual

 

Lol, in a more serious way, the real risk is that 80% of the people won't be able to operate it as it should ... do you know why real ATPLs got 14 modules and such a hard way to get their qualifications etc ? Simply because it is not given to everyone, I would say a kind of natural selection ... In real life, you have to be extremely motivated and kinda rich, after working hard for months to years to get your theoric ATPL, to pass the practical training ...

 

In sim you have to have LOTS OF time to spent, and try to be as professional as real crews ... I really hope you will include some easy mode for dummies, or this one will really frustrate many " sunday simmers " ...

 

Great work, I'm really amazed by the 3D and texture ( that's the only thing we see for now )

[Cameron]

the real risk is that 80% of the people won't be able to operate it as it should

 

or this one will really frustrate many " sunday simmers " ...

 

 

Quick, someone call PMDG and tell them they're doing it wrong! 

[Hueyman]

Why being so sarcastic Cameron ?

 

You are a PPL student aren't you ? You know even that little qualification require some serious work on some parts ( meteorology, navigation, air rules etc ... ) so please be neutral and admit being the PiC of such ship is not given to everyone

 

I did not say it would not sell well, but how many PMDG users are actually using all the functionalities of their beloved product ? and now, how many are just taking her up in the air for a simple flight, using only minimum plane system ...

 

If you don't want to hear that that is your privilege but that is life ... you can see other FS forums that many dudes are overwhelmed by the complexity of those ships, and in a way " surrender " and choose to only fly from time to time, simple patterns ...

 

Obviously on the other side you got a bunch of hardcore simmers that are as professional as the 25 000+ hours about to be retired airline pilot ...

[Cameron]

Why being so sarcastic Cameron ?

 

Because your comments were logically silly.

 

 

 

I did not say it would not sell well, but how many PMDG users are actually using all the functionalities of their beloved product ? and now, how many are just taking her up in the air for a simple flight, using only minimum plane system ...

 

You said 80% of people won't be able to operate (how do you even know that) it, and that IXEG will frustrate "sunday simmers". My point of post is quite clear: The number of customers developers like IXEG are targeting far outweigh that of "sunday simmers" (a group of individuals that IXEG is surely NOT targeting). 

 

PMDG has been around for a very, very long time. I don't think those people keep returning for every product they churn out with frustration in their mind. Obviously they're doing something right, and as we have seen, complexity sells.

[Hueyman]

and as we have seen, complexity sells

 

This is where you don't take time to read the member's posts

 

I never said it do not sells well at all ! I said not many people will be able to fully use all its functionality okay ?

 

Buy a product and know how to use it are two completely different things. I can buy an oscilloscope, is that means I know how to use all its functionalities ? No, but it's something that attracts me much, so I bought it, to finally realize it is not for me as it require tremendous professional scientific knowledge to be used correctly ( it's an example do not nitpick with that )

 

Now, sorry for the off-topic, the matter is closed for me, you may agree or not but the facts are that not many people are able to operate a Boeing 737-300 out of the box, and reading the different manuals, with a total pages of maybe 2000+ page ( and understand it and be able to apply procedures ... ) is really the minimum requirements, as well as learning all navigation stuff, air rules, weather etc

 

Thanks

[Cameron]

This is where you don't take time to read the member's posts

 

I read EVERY word you said.

 

 

 

I never said it do not sells well at all ! I said not many people will be able to fully use all its functionality okay ?

 

You're missing the point entirely. The way you put it makes it as though to say the products' complexity will be its own downfall. You try to back this up with proposing an easy mode for dummies.

 

Regardless of whether the general market will or will not utilize every feature (I have no idea if your stats are right, but I doubt it) is really irrelevant, and this is where you are not understanding me.

 

Plain and simple: who cares if some people don't do it right? That is their choice. If they're having fun that's all that matters. There's a reason PMDG and their product type is so successful, and they don't cater to "dummies" just to get their dollar. As many times as a product has been released by that company, I think the message is quite clear on what people enjoy. With IXEG, they can do the same.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled 737 chatter.

[Hueyman]

If they're having fun that's all that matters

 

Absolutely , back on the A-10 manual, it's crazy how you can enjoy a product so much more when you know how to use it, entirely

 

No problem, I'm sure this one will break the records

[Litjan]

... but with your work IXEG, you will force me to deeply learn the 737 systems, and that is torture ( I know what I mean I am about half of the 650+  pages manual of the DCS A-10C Warthog ... )

 

That is torture and you leave us no option, but reading your ( probably ) 1000+ page manual

 

Rest assured, it is about 5x more complex to operate the DCS A-10C compared to even a real 737. I have spent a lot of time with the A-10, and whenever I don´t fly it for 2 weeks, I have to start over learning the systems and controls from scratch. It is a nightmare in ergonomics, not quite as bad as russian hardware, but close.

 

The 737 is made to be easy to learn and fly and not to give you a tough time when times are tough (unlike some more "modern" passenger airliners ).

 

Jan

[frankbyte]

Talking about complexity, in my opinion we have enough possibilities to "steer" the way we want to have it. The first one (that i am always using) is to switch off the "failures" in X-plane itself. I think it would be the failures who demand a lot of Know-How that perhaps a lot uf us dont have and don't want to invest in. And i think we can't complain about the fact that we can have the failures if we want.

 

Of course a brand new beginner in the sim will anyway be overstrained by a complex machine, even without failures. But we have to be fair enough and say that most of us aren't beginners (i guess the most new users come from the FSX and aren't beginners).

 

And i must say that most of the time, the developers made a big effort to help us dealing with the complexity (like the Auto-Start-function of the newest Saab or the checklists where we can be shown automatically where the mentionned commands are). Also there are some short manuals that help us to make our first flight pretty quickly without having to study each button. For me such things are greatly appreciated and should be enough for most of us.

Edited September 29, 2013 by frankbyte

[tkyler]

That is torture and you leave us no option, but reading your ( probably ) 1000+ page manual

 

We have very much considered many types of users, including beginners.  We are endeavoring to provide a series of documentation and tutorials that will help ease folks into the complexity of the product and also get enjoyment out of it even without having to dig deep.   We will not just be copying Boeings manual and our manual will be significantly less than 1000 pages .    Jan's insight is extraordinary as is his delivery...he just has a way of explaining things and knowing what folks want to know that make it easy to understand and we are going to try and capture that in our docs.

 

I envision other methods of teaching folks....I think teaching material can be entertainment in and of itself  (think AoA media)....but of course this all takes time to develop and it is my thought that we'll probably see more training tutorials after the product is out and we can facilitate a nice delivery mechanism....but we are indeed thinking of the "complex simmer first timer"......After all, I am one myself.

 

TomK

[Morten]

[MTR1994]

We need a cockpit screenshot!!! =)

[JGregory]

We need a cockpit screenshot!!! =)

Something wrong with this ? Posted just yesterday !

Edited September 29, 2013 by JGregory

[MTR1994]

JGregory

Thank you for information

[meshboy]

It looks soooooo gooooood! Im surprised by the development speed since last video! Great work!

If i were to descide, which i am not! Hehe i would scrap all paper manual and go for 5-10 videos with Jan. One for beginners on howto start up easy and just fly away. And one for me where a 100% replica on real flight is done.

[KAPTEJNLN]

yep indeed it look´s grate i just hope we could get a Jet time Livery that could make me very happy, as here there is only a few of the 300 left.. Jet time has 14 planes in the fleed 7 model 300, 1 of 400 and 7 model 700

so they have a lot of this old lady. compared to there size

Edited September 30, 2013 by KAPTEJNLN

[tkyler]

So one thing that is important to us at IXEG is that we try and get the interaction with the cockpit as realistic as we can..and still feel natural in feel, look, sound and operation.  The flap lever in the 737 is gated...so in reality, you have to pull it up out of its gate, move it to another position and let it slip back into the new gated position.  It has a very distinct motion and sound but at the same time, its a relatively smooth operation so the challenge was to recreate the motion / sound / feel in sim......and it has to work with both the mouse and default flap buttons (1 and 2 keys).  The video below shows using the mouse manipulator followed by the default flap keystrokes. (11.2mb)

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/955680/flapslever.mp4

[howardthepilot1999]

Hey Tom !

 

Really, what you said and show us here really makes me angry and want to cry, I'm so desperate ...

 

Because, I'm a GA and Helicopter kind of guy, loving the pure feeling of flying VFR and sometimes IFR ... but with your work IXEG, you will force me to deeply learn the 737 systems, and that is torture ( I know what I mean I am about half of the 650+  pages manual of the DCS A-10C Warthog ... )

 

That is torture and you leave us no option, but reading your ( probably ) 1000+ page manual

 

Lol, in a more serious way, the real risk is that 80% of the people won't be able to operate it as it should ... do you know why real ATPLs got 14 modules and such a hard way to get their qualifications etc ? Simply because it is not given to everyone, I would say a kind of natural selection ... In real life, you have to be extremely motivated and kinda rich, after working hard for months to years to get your theoric ATPL, to pass the practical training ...

 

In sim you have to have LOTS OF time to spent, and try to be as professional as real crews ... I really hope you will include some easy mode for dummies, or this one will really frustrate many " sunday simmers " ...

 

Great work, I'm really amazed by the 3D and texture ( that's the only thing we see for now )

No worries, I am a cadet currently flying a Level D Boeing 737-800 sim, the 737 is not a difficult aircraft to learn at all.