great airplane except ground handling

[cpuwolf]

as We know Hotstart TBM-900 is 1st class aircraft in X-Plane world, at least at the moment. 

in this forum, this is not the first time we discuss about ground handling about this bird. I understand we could practise some "special skill" to overcome it.

my question to "Hotstart" team: do you think it is perfect? or you are still improving it?

actually I am not interested in "special skill", my interest is is it matching real TBM-900?

 

I just hope you are still improving it, then sorry about "great airplane expect ground handling"  

[fireone]

What  measures have you tried to modify the response of the rudder axis ?

Edited January 2, 2019 by fireone

[YYZ342]

I can concur with @cpuwolf the controls are touchy. Obviously I am not a rl pilot here but still very difficult to control this lovely bird on the ground and on approach. The settings I tried were all of them without noticeable difference. I have Saitek pedals, yoke and TM Hotas Warthog. To add to flight controls sensitivity. The TM Hotas throttle is sensitive as well. Slight movement of the TM Hotas throttles corresponds to significantly stronger response of the throttle in the aircraft. If you are aware of the solution, or can suggest a setting that brings the handling in the sim closest to the real thing it would be appreciated. Thnx.

Cheers

[Joers182]

Its a great aircraft! first class. But I must confess taking off/landing this aircraft in anything other than calm winds is a nightmare to keep in a straight line.

[cbreeze]

I have to post my two cents.  Amazing aircraft but during the takeoff roll and landing roll another story.  I have tried the different suggestions posted on this forum but still not able to find a satisfactory fix.

Surly something can be done.

[N55211]

So, for what it's worth, I originally thought the same thing regarding the ground handling.   However, I was determined to master it.   I am a real world pilot, or used to be before health issues, but I have never flown a TBM so I can't speak for or against how the Hotstart compares other than what the developer states that it is pretty close.   Based on all other systems and accuracy I would have to tend to believe that the ground handling probably is also.

Not all airplanes are equal.   Some handle well, others not so well, some are forgiving, others are death traps.    I admit that the ground handling on this plane was very frustrating because I wanted to just jump in and fly.  That didn't work too well.   So, what do we do?   We go back to everything our infamous flight instructors always told us;  "Practice, practice and practice some more."   Do touch and go after touch and go; which is what I did.   What helps me most is moving the rudder trim half way to the right between center and the green hash for takeoff, hold the brakes until 2000 rpm, release and continue to slowly increase torque.   For landing, make sure the rudder trim is centered.   Not saying it will work for everyone but does for me.

I won't make the claim that I've completely "mastered" it yet, but taxi, takeoff and landing is now controllable as I have a good "feel" for the aircraft.  Of course crosswinds throws another element to it, but it does with any aircraft.

With the level of depth of this aircraft, realism is everything and sometimes that means...practice, practice, practice.  As far as mastering it?  As pilots do we ever really master anything?  Every flight is a constant critique and our entire flying career whether professional or hobby always has good flights and bad flights.  

This is the only plane I fly in X-Plane now due to it's depth and my perfectionist inner self to constantly improve with this plane.   

Just my two cents as I certainly can relate to the frustration, but stick with it and it will pay off and bring continued joy with this plane.  I leave you with this.... :

“It is the professional pilot's bounden duty to know the idiosyncrasies of each type (of airplane), for he must spend a large proportion of his active career exploiting its qualities and compensating for its faults. These secrets cannot be discovered in a ground school.” 
― Ernest K. Gann, Fate Is the Hunter

Eric

 

[dvlourie]

25 minutes ago, N55211 said:

So, for what it's worth, I originally thought the same thing regarding the ground handling.   However, I was determined to master it.   I am a real world pilot, or used to be before health issues, but I have never flown a TBM so I can't speak for or against how the Hotstart compares other than what the developer states that it is pretty close.   Based on all other systems and accuracy I would have to tend to believe that the ground handling probably is also.

Not all airplanes are equal.   Some handle well, others not so well, some are forgiving, others are death traps.    I admit that the ground handling on this plane was very frustrating because I wanted to just jump in and fly.  That didn't work too well.   So, what do we do?   We go back to everything our infamous flight instructors always told us;  "Practice, practice and practice some more."   Do touch and go after touch and go; which is what I did.   What helps me most is moving the rudder trim half way to the right between center and the green hash for takeoff, hold the brakes until 2000 rpm, release and continue to slowly increase torque.   For landing, make sure the rudder trim is centered.   Not saying it will work for everyone but does for me.

I won't make the claim that I've completely "mastered" it yet, but taxi, takeoff and landing is now controllable as I have a good "feel" for the aircraft.  Of course crosswinds throws another element to it, but it does with any aircraft.

With the level of depth of this aircraft, realism is everything and sometimes that means...practice, practice, practice.  As far as mastering it?  As pilots do we ever really master anything?  Every flight is a constant critique and our entire flying career whether professional or hobby always has good flights and bad flights.  

This is the only plane I fly in X-Plane now due to it's depth and my perfectionist inner self to constantly improve with this plane.   

Just my two cents as I certainly can relate to the frustration, but stick with it and it will pay off and bring continued joy with this plane.  I leave you with this.... :

“It is the professional pilot's bounden duty to know the idiosyncrasies of each type (of airplane), for he must spend a large proportion of his active career exploiting its qualities and compensating for its faults. These secrets cannot be discovered in a ground school.” 
― Ernest K. Gann, Fate Is the Hunter

Eric

 

I have to agree that the only way to feel comfortable with any plane is to get that muscle memory at a level that taxiing, TO and landing become routine. I fly RW and the more I train my brain with XP, the more comfortable I get and the fear of failure is diminished. Ask any pilot, and they will tell you, "confidence & comfortability are the top priority in flying. Anyone can takeoff in  a plane. The TBM is not for the faint of heart if you want to truly fly her as you would in the real world. Slamming the throttle all the way and taking off after 10 minutes of prep is kinda like travelling to Barcelona and jumping on a 2500 lb bull and trying to stay on. As with any plane, BEFORE you EVER attempt a take-off - learn about the plane...study the features and specifications...understand how to properly start and taxi and the after all that, do it all over again. I have maybe 50 totals hours in the TBM. That's not a lot. And of those 50, maybe 40 really flying. A lot of Hobbs time and costly fuel went into my enjoying flying this plane. I apologize if I offended anyone, but even the best surgeons in the world don't get into the OR after playing Milton Bradley's Operation for 30 minutes! (for those not quite sure, Google it) Happy New Year and safe flying......

Edited January 3, 2019 by dvlourie

[Jakob Ludwig]

9 hours ago, dvlourie said:

I have to agree that the only way to feel comfortable with any plane is to get that muscle memory at a level that taxiing, TO and landing become routine. I fly RW and the more I train my brain with XP, the more comfortable I get and the fear of failure is diminished. Ask any pilot, and they will tell you, "confidence & comfortability are the top priority in flying. Anyone can takeoff in  a plane. The TBM is not for the faint of heart if you want to truly fly her as you would in the real world. Slamming the throttle all the way and taking off after 10 minutes of prep is kinda like travelling to Barcelona and jumping on a 2500 lb bull and trying to stay on. As with any plane, BEFORE you EVER attempt a take-off - learn about the plane...study the features and specifications...understand how to properly start and taxi and the after all that, do it all over again. I have maybe 50 totals hours in the TBM. That's not a lot. And of those 50, maybe 40 really flying. A lot of Hobbs time and costly fuel went into my enjoying flying this plane. I apologize if I offended anyone, but even the best surgeons in the world don't get into the OR after playing Milton Bradley's Operation for 30 minutes! (for those not quite sure, Google it) Happy New Year and safe flying......

I can only agree on dvlourie's statement here. Having now over 250h on this airframe, I am quite confident in all stages of flight. Take-offs and landings, even in 10-20kts crosswind conditions are manageable, once you experience how it behaves and what it does of you try to control it. Same goes along for gusty wind conditions and short landings and take-offs. You need to learn her and you need to know her. This is not a 737 or a A320, where you just push a button and hold your controls a bit to cope with any environmental condition. The TBM is an overpowered light weight diva.

This was my approach on how the get into the aircraft, basically how I learn every new airframe:

1. Read the documentation, POH, References, Limitations, Flight Patterns etc. Print out the most important (abbreviated checklist, reference numbers)

2. Practice the standard procedures several times 

- I practiced take-off runs and landing rolls, by doing normal take-offs and rejecting each at 85 knots. With normal braking at first, than with thrust below flight idle and with reverse at last. Over and over again. I did that on a 14000ft runway, so I could do up to three of them in a row, turn-around at the end and start from scratch. I progressively changed wind conditions to make it harder every time.

- For take-off and landing practice I did touch-and-goes as per POH, about 20 in a row. First in calm winds and then with headwind only, light crosswind, heavier crosswind, gusts... In this stage I learned how to work the rudder, how the optimum flare works and how to control the TBM along the critical stages of the flight. 

- In this stage I adjusted my hardware to make it more comfortable with the TBM. Hard to recommend something here as it will vary with different setups, but my experience is to have the controls setup to have the most direct and fastest reaction... 

3. Do some complete flights and take care of a good preparation. "proper pre-flight planning prevents poor performance". Guess the 6 P of aviation... 

And the most important thing anyway in my opinion: Learn the checklists.... These are the path you walk along in the TBM.

I am now in the stage of verifying my knowledge and reviewing my actions and tasks, as they can be possibly optimized or changed ,because of a false pattern... 

I have never experienced such a sophisticated virtual aircraft through 20 years of flight simming. A beauty to watch, delightful to handle (once you learn how) and demanding on my brain. I learned a lot about turbines, avionics and systems. And I feel I still haven't figures it all... 

[cpuwolf]

yes, agree. do you assume I am a newbie? not really

I fly it everyday from it was first-day on market, I can handle it easily in all stages, including 29 knots cross wind, that is why I said "special skill"

even we made new hardware MCP710 for TBM-900

The question is still on my head: is it matching real TBM-900?

Edited January 4, 2019 by cpuwolf

[ourwish]

I just feel there are not different between in the sky or on the land.  yaw a little move a lot, looks like no friction force

[Jakob Ludwig]

5 hours ago, cpuwolf said:

yes, agree. do you assume I am a newbie? not really

I fly it everyday from it was first-day on market, I can handle it easily in all stages, including 29 knots cross wind, that is why I said "special skill"

even we made new hardware MCP710 for TBM-900

The question is still on my head: is it matching real TBM-900?

Well i can't compare as I only flew smaller single engine aircraft IRL. But hey, X-Plane is a simulator and I have never experienced a simulator which felt like real in all it's aspects. Whether visuals, systems or ergonomics. And I feel X-Plane does a good job flight model wise. And flying a sim without feeling the forces working the aircraft is restricting enough, so basically hard to judge with every aircraft... But I feel comfortable and all stages of the flight are manageable with a degree of training in the TBM.

[Sweet19blue]

Hi,

Of course it is not the same in real life. Nobody would ever buy a TBM if you can not taxy it straight during TO or LDG roll without having 50+ hours in it. 

My guess is that the real TBM is straight forward to taxi just like most of GA aircraft and does not need special skills for that. You just have to feel the plane IRL and.that is just what we can not do in a sim. Sims sucks ^^ And Xplane is so bad with ground handling... what a pity and frustration.

Pierre

[Cameron]

1 hour ago, Sweet19blue said:

My guess is that the real TBM is straight forward to taxi just like most of GA aircraft and does not need special skills for that.

I'll bet you it's not.

I just taxied (in real life) and flew a Piper Saratoga the other day. I am mostly used to standard GA Cessna's and Arrows. The Saratoga was NOTHING like I was used to in my normal GA flying. Taxiing was much different and a surprising challenge because of how heavy an aircraft it is. The TBM is even heavier.

[Sweet19blue]

I had the TO and LDG roll only in mind. Taxiing on taxiway is relatively easy in the Hotstart TBM I think.

Pierre

[Jakob Ludwig]

I know the TBM isn't the easiest to handle during take-offs and landings, but after almost 300h on the virtual airframe I can advise you following. Give it a try and maybe it works for you.

Take-off.

1. Elevator trim in green (lowest edge of it), rudder trim just a bit right of the center (more right if you are really heavy), Flaps T/O, Flight Director TOGA

2. On the runway, hold brakes, increase TRQ to 50%, Push yoke a bit forword to apply more pressure on the front wheel

3.

- Release brakes

- advance throttle slowly to take-off power (85-95 is ok for most situations), don't punch it forward within a second, take your time, an rapid increase of throttle means a rapid increase in TRQ and roll factor, 

- hold aircraft centered with short and minimal movements on the rudder. More like a jitters with you feet, don't swing with your feet. Try to think ahead of the aircraft, take into account crosswind. The aircraft will always try to turn into the wind once it gains speed. This is the part where people are not anticipating enough and start wild corrections with the rudder, letting the aircraft swerve around with to large and over-reactive movements. 

- Hold the ailerons a bit into the crosswind, during rotation and short afterwards the wing towards the wind will drop a bit, so you need to there with your flight controls before it happens. 

- at about 85 knots pull yoke back gently but continoues and watch your nose lifting. You should rotate somewhere near 95 knots

- follow the flight director, 10° pitch, at confirmed positive rate retract the gear, retract flaps passing 115 knots

 

Experience may vary with your hardware and axis settings. I only can recommend to set it the most direct way, so basically linear all the way on all controls. With this my take-offs are non-problematic within the aircraft crosswinds and gusts limits. 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Jakob Ludwig

[RobW05]

Very good summary, totally agree with almost all you wrote. 

It's just this part which is totally different for me:

5 hours ago, Jakob Ludwig said:

... rudder trim just a bit right of the green (more right if you are really heavy)... 

I have already mentioned it in a different thread, setting rudder in the green (you say even right of it? ) I find myself heavily correcting with massive left rudder once the aircraft picks up speed. I have to set rudder just a bit right of center, then I am able to keep it under control.

No way for me to follow the book here, rudder in the green is a no go. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by RobW05

[Sims Smith]

The main issue is different hardware and calibration make it very hard for everyone to get consistent results even if the aircraft is model after the real one. I will appreciate it if anyone can make a dedicated take off and landing video. Picture worth 1000 words. 

[Jakob Ludwig]

1 hour ago, RobW05 said:

Very good summary, totally agree with almost all you wrote. 

It's just this part which is totally different for me:

I have already mentioned it in a different thread, setting rudder in the green (you say even right of it? ) I find myself heavily correcting with massive left rudder once the aircraft picks up speed. I have to set rudder just a bit right of center, then I am able to keep it under control.

No way for me to follow the book here, rudder in the green is a no go. 

That was clearly a mistake. I meant just a bit right of center... i corrected it on the original post. sorry. Ya in the green is to much right tendency .. correct. 

[Sweet19blue]

There is no doubt proper takeoff and landing roll can be achieved with lot and lot of training. It is rather the fact that there is a need for such a long training that is bugging me in my opinion...and proud ^^ 

Actually there is no need to argue anymore. The problem is well known now and it is up to Hotstart to decide if there is something to do about it.

Pierre

[Jakob Ludwig]

Agree. I know even with 11.30 experimental flight model options that @skiselkov won't touch the flight model, as it's pretty spot on and most pilots feel comfortable with it.

But I agree as well, that some aspects of the behavior on ground should be reviewed. I see the TBM often skidding over the nosewheel, despite taxing with 5 knots and the fuselage behaves sometimes strange to heavy gusty crosswinds with yaw damper off. 

[cpuwolf]

 

[kevinm1]

Just letting you guys know this is actually accurate to many airplane's I've flown, best advice I can give you is to react quickly to any turns to stay on top of it, and as every pilot says "Sometime's you gotta do A dance on the peddal's to keep her satisfied."

[YYZ342]

The problem is slight effort to controls translates/produces much greater, unproportionally greater output resulting in the aircraft all over the runway. I tried curves, sensitivities, nothing works. There is no possible way this is close to the real thing. As, such I believe, imho, this model needs tuning. I personally cannot enjoy it thus far cuz on the ground it is not how it is. Before you say I am wrong...I do not dispute that air craft needs corrections from the pilot. I am saying the effort needed to correct translates into too great of the output causing the air craft to be overly sensitive.

[Goran_M]

39 minutes ago, YYZ342 said:

The problem is slight effort to controls translates/produces much greater, unproportionally greater output resulting in the aircraft all over the runway. I tried curves, sensitivities, nothing works. There is no possible way this is close to the real thing. As, such I believe, imho, this model needs tuning. I personally cannot enjoy it thus far cuz on the ground it is not how it is. Before you say I am wrong...I do not dispute that air craft needs corrections from the pilot. I am saying the effort needed to correct translates into too great of the output causing the air craft to be overly sensitive.

Please take a look at some twitch videos. Grau Adler is one of my favourites, and he lands the TBM smooth every single time. He’s just 1 of many. I’ve also landed it several times without issue. You’ve also seen @cpuwolf land on a dirt/grass runway in the video above. 

[sdflyer]

1 hour ago, YYZ342 said:

The problem is slight effort to controls translates/produces much greater, unproportionally greater output resulting in the aircraft all over the runway. I tried curves, sensitivities, nothing works. There is no possible way this is close to the real thing. As, such I believe, imho, this model needs tuning. I personally cannot enjoy it thus far cuz on the ground it is not how it is. Before you say I am wrong...I do not dispute that air craft needs corrections from the pilot. I am saying the effort needed to correct translates into too great of the output causing the air craft to be overly sensitive.

Try to make small corrections. If you over compensate you will quickly loose control of the airplane.