Quick question

[G-ERTI]

Please you ointment you are being rather rude now. I just don't want to break the law and as long as I know what I am doing is legal in my country I have no qualms about doing it. End of story. I have not had my mind made up, in fact I said I would contact FF, but now thanks to the information of other members I no longer need to trouble them. With regards to the flying, every little helps.

[G-ERTI]

And that would be a yes SQRT, anything you want to ask just go ahead. I am happy to answer your questions. The only reason I do not think I am doing wrong is because it is only US based members who seem to have a problem with this. From what I have seen, unless I am mistaken all European members seem to be OK with it.

[sqrt(-1)]

Suit yourself.  Have a nice day.

 

You wasted enough of mine.

[G-ERTI]

I am glad you think so highly of your time SQRT. If so I would recommend you don't bother wasting it on me, as after all in the grand scheme of things we are talking about $60 of software, not £10000. I am sure your time is far more valuable than that, so I thank you profusely for it. Lastly may I add I am still very open about this, should someone present a European law which forbids this, so far no one has...

Edited June 10, 2014 by G-ERTI

[ointment]

As for your logic with a US product, an IPOD is a US product but under my use of it in the EU, EU laws apply to it not US laws. So I think you are the one with logic flaws. By depriving me of the product I have paid for I did not make myself clear, but I meant updates associated with the purchase of the product. I am sorry you think I am trying to play this to my advantage, but I will play by the laws of where I live, not your country.

You are still wrong.  You buy and you OWN an iPod.  You buy and OWN a car.  You buy and OWN your computer.  But you do NOT own your software.  You are granted a license to use the software under the agreements you made when you purchased the software.  If it were worth the time to prosecute you for copyright infringement, I'm certain the developers would pursue that course.  Unfortunately, you are small potatoes and they could only recover the amount of the loss, which in this case is less than $60.  That's why people like you get away with redistributing software.  By redistributing software, you are depriving the developer of the profits he could have made by selling to the purchaser you have taken from him.  I don't think Philip or Roman are too keen about that proposition.  Then again, it's only sixty bucks!  They won't miss that sixty bucks, will they?

 

Your disregard for the law is disheartening.  You bought a US product from a US supplier and you agreed to abide by the conditions of sale.  The distributor of the product has told you it is against the conditions of sale to redistribute the product, yet you continue to solicit the "community" to see what they think to try to get people to agree with you.  You try to apply your laws to facilitate your desire to get your money back for a product that you have stated yourself has been useful to you.  Nonetheless, you are bound by the laws under which the purchase was made, no matter where you live.  If you are honest in your heart, you will agree.  

[G-ERTI]

Look my friend. I do not live in the US, I am not staying the US. When I am in your country I respect your laws, I however, do not feel the need to abide to them when I am not. It is clear that anyone who would buy it from me would not be prepared to buy it for $60 as otherwise they would, so I am not depriving FF. I am letting one person experience it. Anyway, I have given them my $60, therefore I have not broken any laws in my country, hence they would be foolish and time wasting to pursue me. Any court in Europe would just ignore it, because what I am doing is clearly legal under EU law. As LEEN said, to enforce an EULA in the EU wherever, you got the software from is illegal. I am afraid that is the end of it. The US justice system does not have jurisdiction in Europe.

Edited June 10, 2014 by G-ERTI

[ointment]

You, pal, are the reason X-Aviation products have such strong DRM built into their products.  I assure you Carenado will soon be using DRM to protect their products from people like you, too.  You have no ethics.  We can continue to debate the legalities, but the fact remains that you choose to ignore the unethical nature of reselling something that the author and distributor have told you not to redistribute.  Whether your feet are on this continent or not doesn't mean you can disrespect or disregard the laws under which you made the purchase.  If you can sleep with yourself at night, then you go right ahead and join the ranks of software pirates.

Edited June 10, 2014 by ointment

[G-ERTI]

You seem to be insulating I would make copies of these products. Well you would be wrong. Also DRM does not stop selling products on. It just stops people making copies. As far as I am aware there was no mention of making copies. In fact I made it very clear I would not. So please stop being all libellous and petty, it is not healthy. Stop having a panic attack just because your laws are not effective where you want them to be. I think ointment has contributed all he needs to to this thread. So for the last time. IF SOMEONE CAN FIND A LAW WHICH APPLIES IN EUROPE (where I live) WHICH STATES THE SELLING OF SECOND HAND SOFTWARE IS ILLEGAL, I WILL NOT SELL ANYTHING. IF NOT THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING ME, ACCEPT DISAPPROVAL OF PEOPLE I WILL NEVER MEET!

[Ben Russell]

The flight sim market is a very very delicate garden.

 

If all users resort to selling off their products to each other the result is that MUCH LESS money would end up being returned to a developer that is already invested in a very delicate market.

 

This action on a wide spread basis would very quickly kill the third party products market.

 

 

Regardless of law, DRM preference or ethical stance, the stark reality is that if you don't embrace the developers and show them support they won't be able to produce more product.

 

 

You're playing with fire in a very fragile and flamable market place. Beware.

[G-ERTI]

I understand your view point Ben. I just think that I have done my fair share for the XP community.I have supported developers with hundreds of dollars, $390 to be precise. Therefore I think I have given my fair share of support for devs.

[ointment]

I just think that I have done my fair share for the XP community.I have supported developers with hundreds of dollars, $390 to be precise. Therefore I think I have given my fair share of support for devs.

Wow.     Guess that pretty much sums it up.  

Edited June 10, 2014 by ointment

[G-ERTI]

Hello everyone, I have just spoken to Dan Klaue and he very cogently and earnestly communicated his view point. By way of this, although in the EU it is still legal to sell the second hand software, on a personal and community based level, it is not worth the aggravation or the upset it causes. Therefore having been swayed by a personal argument from Dan and after thinking about what he said for a short while I have concluded I will not be selling the aircraft.

I ADMIT I WAS WRONG FROM A MORAL STAND POINT.

Edited June 10, 2014 by G-ERTI

[glasscockpits]

Well, FF is a European company, they know about these things.

[hobofat]

I ADMIT I WAS WRONG FROM A MORAL STAND POINT.

 

I don't think you were ever morally wrong. But I do think you are taking the "higher road" here and applaud your willingness to consider multiple sides of the issue. Bravo.

[Cameron]

Therefore even Nicolas in his ivory tower of power has no jurisdiction over my selling on second hand aircraft. He cannot do anything beyond banning on his forum...

 

Just to clarify, I believe this statement is incorrect.

 

As far as I recall, the 757 is controlled by activation. Therefore, while you can sell the product, he does not have to clear the activation slot for your newfound owner to actually be able to USE the product. This is where DRM does in fact come into play. So, again, if Nicolas already said no, and you decide to sell, it doesn't mean Nicolas will comply with your sale and request for him to free up the activation slot for use on a new machine.

 

I know this may be a waste of a post at this point (since you have decided to no longer sell), but I wanted to clarify this point. It appears to me you didn't think about this part of the whole ordeal.

[G-ERTI]

In that situation, all though it will not need to occur, I would report him to PayPal for not providing the goods. One of the benefits of using it is that they have great customer protection.

[Carlos Garcia]

I would report him to PayPal for not providing the goods.

 

You CANT evidence that... And this post and every thing you write here is a evidence that the org store provide you the goods...and thats convert you in a LIAR ...

 

Como se te ocurre planear tu defensa legal ante el uso de un producto en mentiras. Solo a una persona sin dos dedos de frente, puede expresar en un foro publico, que va a demandar a una tienda, con base a mentiras.... LOL... Y mas cuando ha expresado ya en dos foros publicos con mas de 3.000 usuarios, cual es su posicion en frente al producto obtenido y por que quiere venderlo.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Carlos Garcia

[G-ERTI]

Look Carlos, I have admitted I was wrong, personally I would like to leave it that. What I was getting at, is that if I was not allowed access to a product I had paid because he removed the DRM pass code, I do not think that would be right as I have paid for them and I have not and will not sell them now. So may I also add a sincere apology to anyone I have offended by writing these posts. I see now that it is not right to deprive people of potential custom. I am sorry to all the devs and Nicolas in particular. Therefore if we could just leave it there that would be great. I hope I have done the right thing by apologising and admitting I am in the wrong and now everyone can just forget about it and move on. I hope I am allowed to continue to offer my custom to XP devs as well.

[Cameron]

In that situation, all though it will not need to occur, I would report him to PayPal for not providing the goods. One of the benefits of using it is that they have great customer protection.

Digital, non-tangible goods are not protected by PayPal and they will ALWAYS side with the seller in this situation.

[G-ERTI]

Cameron, I am sure you know more about it than I do.

[ointment]

Hopefully this thread can serve to educate others who might contemplate any form of piracy, redistribution or theft of intellectual property.  It appears Archie has come to understand the X-Plane community is a lot smaller and tighter than he may have realized.  If you don't want to get kicked out of the pool, it's best not to pee in it.

Edited June 11, 2014 by ointment

[hobofat]

Hopefully this thread can serve to educate others who might contemplate any form of piracy, redistribution or theft of intellectual property.  It appears Archie has come to understand the X-Plane community is a lot smaller and tighter than he may have realized.  If you don't want to get kicked out of the pool, it's best not to pee in it.

 

The right choice was made based on the good advice provided in the thread, including an apology. The holier than thou attitude displayed here is really unnecessary.

Edited June 11, 2014 by hobofat

[ointment]

The right choice was made based on the good advice provided in the thread, including an apology. The holier than thou attitude displayed here is really unnecessary.

Excuse me, Hobofat.  I certainly didn't mean for it to sound "holier than thou."  I am privy to a lot more information concerning this whole situation and Archie will understand my post more than anyone else here.  His decision was made and based more on his conversation with Dan than it was on the posts in this thread.  I should have PM'd my comment rather than posting it publicly, but I sincerely hope the community does learn from this thread that it is not okay to deprive developers of their compensation for the work they do by reselling or redistributing their work.

[hobofat]

Excuse me, Hobofat.  I certainly didn't mean for it to sound "holier than thou."

 

Understood, thanks for the response.

[Leen de Jager]

As I said before I do not like the way things develop in Europe. ( software-wise spoken)

Sometimes things are not forbidden ( at some places)  , nevertheless better not to do, for the sake of the subject.

 

BUT a question was asked and the answer about the European and US situation was given.

Selling second hand cars is ok , we cannot copy twenty cars in seconds.

We can copy hundred Carenados within seconds and there lies the problem.
OK registration-codes on-line can solve that problem

 

Its clear software are no cars.

BUT!!!

When I want to buy a new car , I can collect the car of my choice at the dealer and take it for a testride.
Can even com back next week for a second spin.
There is no need for me to buy first and try later.

 

There are thousands of software packages on the market giving the client the possibility of "tasting first".

 

Strange enough thats a phenomena NOT FOR SIMMERS ( not entirely true there is a DEMO of X-Plane )

Last years I bought several sim-aircraft wich I trashed within the hour after purchase.

As a painter I am interested in the EULA ( repainting rights and restrictions ) several vendors refused me to  have a look at the EULA before purchase.

I am talking about FSX and X-Plane aircraft , its the same "there".

 

These things need improvement.

EULA open for the prospect , not only for the guy who already paid.

Trail versions of planes and other sim-related software.( complicated part of a grown up bizz)

The possibility of transfer of licences ( including a reasonable fee for the vendor wich co-operation is vital )

 

This is already possible in the world outside our hobby , sim world just has to follow.

Sometimes I think.......................OK fill this in yourself.

 

I am confident the things will change in future, it will take a while and we should be carefull and protect our developers.

The devopers and vendors need to take action, these few lines might inspire them, I really hope.

 

I rest my case.

 

 

Leen de Jager

Edited June 11, 2014 by Leen de Jager