Is this site affiliated with the .org or .org store?

[Big T]

Just curious if this site is affiliated with or have any business interest with the .ORG site/.ORG store?

[woweezowee]

no

[Big T]

That’s good to know.

The reason I asked is because I was handed a warning temp/suspension over there for nothing more than expressing my opinion on what I felt was a poor business practice. I made no mention of names, made no personal attacks and even put IMO at the end of my post that was quickly and subsequently removed. I was then dubbed a troll and told my “continuous whining was not welcome” by the admin who administered it.

There’s always two sides to any coin and I’ll admit I was pretty critical of the .ORG store and how it supports the products it sells but, I made these criticisms in private not on the forum and not for anyone else (customers) to see. Turns out the developer forwarded my complaint to the .ORG store so they, the .org store, would send me a new or direct link to the update I was upset about being late to receive. (and when it did arrive it didn’t work) That person at the .org store turned out to be the Admin who hair triggered my suspension obviously for the criticism I made in private about his/their said business practice.

He also told me during my admonishment that it’s a free country and I could take my business elsewhere. I intended to do just that. Considering I spend a significant amount of money to support my hobby I consider this their loss not mine.

The major criticism I had is the way they handle support via email links and attached files through the external program “Usend it”. Emails address’s change and messages get missed. There is no place for me to just “go get” the update to the product I purchased, they don’t post a link or pin the file to download at my leisure. Instead I’m at their mercy to send it to me and then update. IMO that’s not a good practice Moreover, when they have offered free scenery with the purchase of a product etc. they don’t or didn’t provide the link to it. I had to email them and ask them to send it to me. Not that big of a deal but still not very user friendly but since it comes in the form of an attachment and not a downloadable link affiliated with your account you can’t go back and re-download it later if your system crashes or you upgrade. Again not a huge deal since I save all my files to an external hard drive but certainly not very elegant.

I’m looking for a place that I can get a little less bias/censored view and a place to purchase my add-on’s with a comfortable level of support. I have purchased here in the past, LES DC3, and KILM and look to do more business in the future as more products become available that I want. Furthermore, I certainly noticed a direct link here to the patch I required over at the .org that I was supposed to wait for a link to? and what this spat was all about? That certainly won’t happen again.

Don’t let my post count fool you; I’ve been simming for a long time. I’m not a troll, nor a whiner, I don’t have any agenda against the .org store I’m just a dissatisfied consumer looking for a more comfortable place to hang my hat if your experience with them has been better than mine, cool.

[Nicola_M]

You're not the only one to have experienced that same heavy-handedness from the org staff, and most people who have been forced out of the org end up here, which is the kind of place the org should be.

Cameron (site owner) has been known to stand up for people in his posts.

As far as I see it, the only connection here to the org is that some of the org staff are also members here.

In all events, welcome to the nicer place.

[jagipson]

The ORG has a reputation for this kind of treatment. There are two ways to starve them.

1). Don't buy from their store, unless you have no alternative. When I purchase, first I attempt to buy directly from the addin creator, e.g. I bought the C208 directly from Carenado. The price is usually the same, but without the middleman, the addin creator gets a higher profit margin. If its available via community-based stores only, I prefer to buy from X-Aviation, over the ORG. The community here is more helpful in my experience.

2). When you create addins/scenery, then don't distribute through unfriendly communities. For example, I am currently intending to make my next airport release/update an X-Pilot exclusive.

[Big T]

Thanks.

I would love to send that admin a copy of my order history a couple of years from now...I think my order history at Simmarket is about 4-5pages deep, probably a bit more at the FSX pilot shop, then there is all the Orbx stuff at flight sim.com, store, a few more at Flight One and then the independents...yeah certainly their loss not mine.

Anyone know if the McPhatt ATR is out yet

[YYZatcboy]

You can always try emailing the author of the add-on directly for the update. They may be able to give you a link as well. Same thing if you want to buy a product. Most developers will sell you one directly or point you to websites where you can get their stuff if you prefer to avoid a specific one.

[Cameron]

...I’m just a dissatisfied consumer looking for a more comfortable place to hang my hat if your experience with them has been better than mine, cool.

Welcome to X-Pilot, Big T!

You can always try emailing the author of the add-on directly for the update. They may be able to give you a link as well. Same thing if you want to buy a product. Most developers will sell you one directly or point you to websites where you can get their stuff if you prefer to avoid a specific one.

Quite sad that you even have to make such a recommendation, Joe. Quite the hassle, too.

[YYZatcboy]

Didn't say it was not a hassle, but it can be done if you want the product.

[Cameron]

Didn't say it was not a hassle, but it can be done if you want the product.

I think it's quite clear Big T is not looking for hassles. If you're confused by this, re-read post #3.

I guess it just strikes home a bit harder since you're a part of the org moderation team, and seemingly stuck in similar situations as you've suggested to Big T if you know such outcomes. Probably best we not further get into that here, though. You and I still have some unfinished business to soon settle from a certain blog website. I've got plans for a proper platform for that.

[YYZatcboy]

Uh huh.

[Big T]

You can always try emailing the author of the add-on directly for the update. They may be able to give you a link as well. Same thing if you want to buy a product. Most developers will sell you one directly or point you to websites where you can get their stuff if you prefer to avoid a specific one.

Actually if you read my post carefully, (it's always hard to interpret what happened from a third party perspective), this is exactly what I did. I sent my email to the developers support address when the org failed to provide me with a timely and working link to the product update. In that email I was critical of the .org store because one I was unhappy with how the support was being provided and two I was hoping the developer would consider offering their products via Simmarket. I have no affiliation with Simmarket at all its just they have always provided me with excellent product support a fair price, links that don't expire or vanish, basically the no hassle solution that Cameron is talking about. It was the developer who then forwarded my email to the .org store in order to get me a new link sent out. Whether the devloper chose to forward it "as is" because they were getting alot of these disgruttled consumer emails is unknown; I'm not trying to read too far into it. I didn't know the Admin who gave me the temp suspension was the same person until I went back an looked at the name on the email the devloper forwarded that message to. Then it all became perfectly clear.

I can handle the minor hastles, I can even deal with the occasional poor service, I can EVEN deal with a little in-house sensorship (I mean it is their house) but, I refuse to do business with anyone or at anyplace that does all of the above and then insults me by calling me a winer, a troll and saying I'm not welcome there when all I asked for was a service they should have provided in the first place.

Enough said, I'm moving on... I found the answer I was looking for. I feel welcome here and the moderator can close/ lock this thread if they want.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Big T

[ryancz]

Go read the rant section for "reviews" on the .org.

A good bunch of people here dislike the .org.

Edited October 12, 2012 by ryancz

[Dozer]

(from xkcd)

I reckon if there were only two people using X-Plane, there would still be at least two rival community forums

[Nicola_M]

I reckon if there were only two people using X-Plane, there would still be at least two rival community forums

Especially if one of them happened to be either Nicolas, or an org mod.

[steven winslow]

...there would still be at least two rival community forums

Sad that they are considered "rivals" when they should easily coexist. In most cases, I think the users of both forums take what they want from each and contribute where they feel most comfortable.

In my case, I have never had a bad customer service experience at the org or X-Aviation, yet there are complaining posts in this forum expressing frustration and detailing bad experiences at both sites. I have had to wait for responses to inquiries at both sites, but nothing exorbitant. I have had to return a Saitek panel to the org that was still under warranty and received a replacement panel with basically no questions asked and no delay. I have had activation issues with some of my X-Aviation purchases and received great customer service and resolution to my problems here.

What I'm getting at is that if you have an issue with a product it is easier and faster to get help when you are nice about asking and when you play by the rules and policies established by the company with whom you are doing business. When you choose to do business with a company, you do business with them the way they want, not the way you want. In my business, we have policies and procedures and certain ways we do things. At least once a month we have a client who tries to tell us how we are going to do business with them. Nope. That's not gonna work! If you want to do business with us, you will follow our way of doing business. We can't be changing the way we do things for every single exception to the rule. So, if someone came to me with a problem or issue with one of our products or services and said, "Hey, your policies suck....by the way, can you help me?" I would be a bit defensive and a lot less apt to be helpful. I would probably "divorce" that client after I took care of their problem. I have a lot more happy clients than angry and I would much rather take care of the happy ones and boot the angry ones!

[Nicola_M]

You shouldn't have angry clients at all. It is usually the customer's experience which sours their happiness, and any decent business's aim should be turning an irate customer into a happy one. Happy ones tend to stick around and remain loyal customers.

If you can afford to turn away "angry" customers, then you must be rolling in it. Look at the org - it tosses away angry customers left, right and centre and also creates angry customers. It will eventually erode its own customer base through its own behaviour and the fact that customers are steered away from "nasty" companies by word of mouth ie previous bad experiences.

The org does not have what one would call a "tiny" base of disgruntled ex-customers. It's substantial, and growing daily, which is good because it's expanding the membership here, which is clearly the nicer place.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Nicola_M

[steven winslow]

I totally concur, Nicola, that a business should not have angry customers, but there are some people that no matter what you do you can't make them happy. Those are the customers you should "divorce." I have been in business over 22 years and I am doing quite well, thank you. I take good care of my clients and 98.5% of them are more than satisfied with our services. But it seems that once every couple of years there is someone who has misconceptions about what we offer or about how we do business and they become unhappy. We do whatever it takes to make them happy, including refunding their investment or whatever else we can do to make them happy.

As for the org, I think your conception of how many angry customers they have is a bit skewed because of your personal experiences and the other few org bashers here. If you consider the number of subscribers at the org to the number of angry forum posters over here and throw in a few more for good measure, the total angry or dissatisfied customers would be well below 5%. They say if you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough. I say if you tell me you can make 100% of your clients happy 100% of the time, you're lying.

Edited October 12, 2012 by steven winslow

[Nicola_M]

Well, I can't say I make all of my customers happy, because I no longer work and don't have to keep customers happy. However, in my working life the ethos has always been "the customer is always right" and that has stayed the same right across all the companies I have worked for or with. You kept the customer happy 100% of the time or you found another job, and that applied to all the staff working there. Yiou didn't push awkward customers away, and you certainly didn't insult customers. Not if you wanted a job.

Re the org, nothing is skewed, thank you. I merely go by the fact that the number of people they are haemorrhaging is too many for a "successful" business enterprise. Be that 5% or 55%, sooner or later they will end up with more evacuees than retained customers. Whether that day is tomorrow or in five years time is irrelevant. It's coming.

Even just going on the number of active members here, I think the most was 270 in September 11, if I recall. Checking the org now, they've had 49 visitors. Wow. Huge customer base.

But that's all I'm going to say. I'm out.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Nicola_M

[steven winslow]

For argument sake, there are 126 members online at the org right now. There are 60 online here and the most online here was 224 on September 20, 2011. The most online at the org at one time was 4256 back in November of 2011. As much as you detest the org, they have a much larger customer base and they will not be going away any time soon. By and large, the customers and contributors at the org are a happy bunch, just like the happy bunch here.

What I find interesting is that every single org basher has said something like this in their posts: "I knew I shouldn't do this, but I went ahead and did it at the org..." or "I said this about someone at the org..." or "I disobeyed this rule, but....." and then they come over here and complain about the repercussions and consequences. Seems to me that all the anguish and dissatisfaction is primarily self-inflicted or self-induced by simply not following the org rules or their way of doing business. The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how hard a company tries, there will always be someone who is not happy. I have the same work ethic you profess to have had when you were working. I do my darnedest to make sure my clients are happy. I do whatever it takes, but there are people in this world that you just can't please.

[ryancz]

I would like to say that I posted HERE, and got banned there. I complained about a warning that I couldn't view, hich I didn't even know how I got.

[Nicola_M]

Well, all I can say is that they may have the largest customer base, but they also have the highest proportion of arseholes too.

[steven winslow]

Well, all I can say is that they may have the largest customer base, but they also have the highest proportion of arseholes too.

That may very well be true! I suppose that's the law of averages at work......more people....more arseholes. Proportionately, it's probably about the same as this place.

[-TheoGregory]

Nicolas once automatically messaged while I was on the .org store looking at their latest 'offering'. The message bubble said the 787 by Heinz is "the best addon for X-Plane". I replied "LOL doubt it". 2 minutes later, 30 day ban. If you gonna go out, go out in style.

Edited October 13, 2012 by -TheoGregory

[steven winslow]

Nicolas once automatically messaged while I was on the .org store looking at their latest 'offering'. The message bubble said the 787 by Heinz is "the best addon for X-Plane". I replied "LOL doubt it". 2 minutes later, 30 day ban. If you gonna go out, go out in style.

Now that's actually pretty funny...