Just For The Record

[dainja556]

I've watched, excitedly, the MU-2 project grow from when it was first announced on the org to what it is today.  I always planned on purchasing the aircraft, as it's obviously a wonderful product.  I'd like to state, just for the record, that the one and only reason I haven't purchased this aircraft is because of the DRM.

I'm not trying to start an argument, or rant, or anything like that.  I just want to make my position known.

[tkyler]

No worries at all man!  I seriously respect your opinion.  DRM can be controversial, but most people don't seem to mind the DRM (required CD) used by x-plane...or the use of a serial number for their OS, or photoshop.  In many of the discussions about DRM that I've had, what I've found is that people are selective about which DRM they complain about because we're all surrounded by DRM and folks don't complain about all of it.  Somehow it makes many feel like a criminal, a position I can understand; however, in the end though, the use of the DRM for the MU-2 takes no more than 5 minutes (I registered within 3...yes, the MU-2 on my machine uses it too) and any problems that are encountered in the future can usually be overcome very very quickly.  So the only thing really standing between 98% of end users and the MU-2 is about 5 minutes (or less) of their time.  Now if that strikes a user as too much trouble or offensive...well then that's just a statistic I'm willing to live with.  

DRM also implies "mangement".  We really don't "manage" the digital rights on the MU-2 in a "ongoing" sense, we only enable it.  iTunes for example "keeps on eye" on your and the songs you purchase...step outta line and they know about it because iTunes is constantly communicating via the internet.  Once the MU-2 gets its serial number, that number resides on your machine.  You can copy it to as many machines as you like.  Of course the MU-2 won't work on those machines, but at least we're not spying on you.  If you wanted to change machines, all you'd have to do is work that out with x-aviation, it's been done before.  So once activated, you have complete autonomy...you can disconnect from the internet and still run it.

[Cameron]

I've watched, excitedly, the MU-2 project grow from when it was first announced on the org to what it is today.  I always planned on purchasing the aircraft, as it's obviously a wonderful product.  I'd like to state, just for the record, that the one and only reason I haven't purchased this aircraft is because of the DRM.

I'm not trying to start an argument, or rant, or anything like that.  I just want to make my position known.

I certainly am sorry you have these sentiments, however, the only thing I can say here aside from respecting your opinion is that we are very lenient and easy going with our DRM. We don't "stalk" you or call home. It's essentially the same thing as installing a copy of Windows (just less intrusive), as the actual DRM doesn't connect to the server like Windows would. This goes for plenty of other things out there too. It's essentially a serial number.

It's really too bad that's what is holding you back. You're definitely missing out on one of the best flying experiences there are for X-Plane, and will continue to with things like the CRJ, GA jets, and heavy metal craft as they roll out in the future.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, though! We value hearing potential customers on a regular basis. It's unfortunate that you won't be one of them, but should your stance someday change, you're more than welcome to the picking!

[Goran_M]

Some people don't realize, DRM technology is in use all over the world for many different things.  Albeit, in a different form.

Many shops have DRM (Security Tag on clothing, beeping barriers, PIN's for ATM's, keys for unlocking your car or your house, even, believe it or not, contraception.).  These are all a form of DRM and we, as customers, are forced to accept these forms of security.

What a lot of people don't understand is, payware developers create add ons so they can put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.  Some developers do it for fun and don't charge for their work.  My hats off to them, but those developers do not work towards a deadline and they develop in their spare time for fun because they have full time jobs that pay the bills.  But when a developer spends up to 18 hours a day, 5-6 days a week creating a simming add on only to see that add on end up on torrent sites, it destroys any future add on because the developer just won't bother with making something else which will almost definitely be better unless security can be provided. 

DRM exists to protect developers and to also ensure developers keep creating more, higher quality add ons in the future.

It's a very small price to pay for many hundreds, if not thousands of hours of enjoyment.

Just my 0.02 worth

Goran

[tsedge]

Let me say now that I don't have a particular problem with DRM.  I have the MU2 and I am happy.

I am struggling with the analogies you use.  If I buy clothes, the security tag comes off when I leave the store, the exit sensors only sound in the shop, not at home.  These forms of security end at the shop door and don't follow me home.

Or to put it another way, DRM is like me needing to get a new set of car keys if I move house, my car only being 'valid' at one address.

I think what many people don't like is being dependent on the company for the lifetime of the product.  The company who sold me my washing machine went bust 2 months later, but I wasnt dependent on getting new keys from them at some point in the future.

I know X-Aviation are committed to providing new keys when needed and putting it in the public domain if the company shuts down. But still there's scope for people to worry: what if they don't!

Perhaps what's needed here is an independent body holding key generation under escrow who can step in if needed.  Then people might sleep more soundly.

As I said, I don't worry about it because the risk is low and it is not an expensive purchase.  

[tkyler]

Very well worded...I agree that dependency is the major issue.  It is the reason I do not use google docs, email, file storage services, calendar or any web based software for critical stuff.  Technically our stuff doesn't follow you home either..it's in your sole possession after purchase, but I totally agree it is limited and dependency ensues whenever you have a problem or change something.  The best I can say is we're considering other ways to make it more independent and still be effective.  At least it's less restrictive than iTunes :-)

[Goran_M]

The analogies I use are to familiarize people with the different types of security that is out there.

The main difference is, and I had some kind of problem with this info a few years ago, is that when you buy payware, you don't really own it.  You have bought the license to use it on your computer.  That's where EULA's come in.

If you "owned" it, then you could share it, distribute it, do whatever you wanted to it.

Funny business this E business.

Goran

[crs]

Hi there All,

Hope I will not offence anyone. Just wanted to add my few cents.

DRM differs from serial keys and such a stuff. While one of the side effects is to protect products against piracy DRM has different role. It was being created to _manage_ a digital good. Which mean that DRM controlled good does not really belong to its owner. It DRM policies defining how, when and how often you use your good. For example DRM protected ebook might be only readable on certain device (by one vendor) or you might be able to open it only once (something like borrowing digital books or movies). DRM wasn't designed to protect goods from being copied, as you can still have it on your disk, copy wherever you won't, you just want to be able to use it in other way that producer declared.

The whole idea of fighting against DRM is because you are being controlled _after_ you bought an item. It is like you buy a car and GM tells you that you can never leave the town with this car. You can only drive on mondays or even days. Such a stuff.

While (never bought MU-2) MU-2's registration/key obtaining thing is one go and does not need to be repeated every time you want to fly it, only when you change some configurations of your PC (what exactly causes need of reactivating a product here?) is for sure a sacrifice I can easily make. And will for some upcoming products (WHEEN!?¹). I want to see those magicians here making more and more planes. More and more sceneries. Making XP a better experience for all of us. If the price of it is spending few minutes every year? Let it be.

¹) Ignore me.

Kind regards,

Kamil

[StevenM]

It is also very important to know that your buying games from very small companies. The support lines are extremely short which eases the reissuing of keys *a lot*. Compared to big megacorps as EA, Activision etc. It's much easier to get in contact and get the correct help fast.

From my own experience after switching between computer and subsequently OS it took only a few emails with Cameron to get the MU-2 up and running again.

It would even better (and even more quicker) if I could re-issue a key myself from my account at x-aviation but sometimes a bit of human contact is not so bad.

That said, this DRM is as far as i want to go since every DRM is a token of mistrust imho. And i can take only so much mistrust and hassle.  Personally I almost stopped buying videogames because of the inane "x amount of activations/de-activations" DRM. Leaves me more time with flightsimming, which is good, I could maybe dust of my c++ experience, and start making some interesting stuff.

[-TheoGregory]

That said, this DRM is as far as i want to go since every DRM is a token of mistrust imho. And i can take only so much mistrust and hassle.

Example1

Example2

Example3

Your saying that DRM is unnecessary? Chances are, you would be fine without DRM. But do we risk it. You could (I don't believe you will, but still) put our plane up on every torrent site for 1000 12 year old's to download and we lose $25,000 to $30,000. All it takes is one person and you have lost enough to go on an expensive holiday to over the other side of the world and have the money to do amazing things while over there, and probably have enough money to pay off your credit card (Goran  ) and buy a new car...

1/8th of music, people have in there possession (digitally or hardcopy), is acquired from legal sources. Where's the rest of the music coming from!? Can you see where developers come from wanting to only protect themselves from losing 2000-3000 hours of work?

(Most of the work making you want to take a 9mm to your monitor)

[StevenM]

What your examples proof is that there are people with much more time and expertise than us on circumventing DRM. I make software and games for a living for about 8 years now and I stopped bothering about my stuff being on the torrents. It takes a lot of time and energy and do not forget the extra support you have to give when your DRM doesn't work on the latest OS'es (I remember some nasty stuff with XP64). Instead we focus our precious time on marketing and customer care.

I've read somewhere that a musician has to have about 10.000 fans to get a decent living out of it. This forum has ~980 members, X-Plane.org has ~106.000 members, Avsim has a lot etc, etc. I'm sure you can gather a large crowd of prospective buyers there only by your presence, posting vids/updates/pictures etc. Those millions of people on the pirate bay do not pay for software, not for X-Plane, FSX, COD2. They mod their XBox'es and get R4 cartidges for their DS'es. They're not in our ecosphere.

Another example how futile our DRM was for us. We used armadillo from Siliconrealms as protection method. Very good stuff, you issue a key tied to the name of the customer so when a key gets into the wild it's easy to find the person who spread it. In theory.....

In practice we had a Spanish person who put the key on the torrents. We are from the Netherlands and since Spain is EU we could file a legal complaint at the police. First the police didn't know head or tails about digital crime and once we got one (of the three) officers on the phone who was responsible for digital crime we where told they could do nothing because the crime was too small and they were to busy chasing kiddy pron. We were advised to get a solicitor in Spain (as if we could pay one) and go after the guy ourselves. I believe that was the moment we said sod it and stopped worrying about the whole pirating stuff.

[Kesomir]

My view is that DRM hurts the legitimate consumer - not the people who pirate.

I find it an intense pain for stuff that I buy - and in many cases this trouble doesn't exist in a cracked version - meaning that a paying customer had a lower experience than a non-paying one. It is a deciding factor in purchases, in those cases where similar products compete.

I don't think many "12 year old kiddies" would buy an expensive add on prodcut regardless, so would argue the effect of them bootlegging is mostly irrelevant.

The decision however is with the developer.

[Cameron]

From my own experience after switching between computer and subsequently OS it took only a few emails with Cameron to get the MU-2 up and running again.

It would even better (and even more quicker) if I could re-issue a key myself from my account at x-aviation but sometimes a bit of human contact is not so bad.

For the record, this feature of automated re-activation is being implemented in future products. Even more is in sim activation rather than having to use your web browser in addition to X-Plane.

Now, here's the deal:

We've been through this topic time and time again, and in fact this topic itself is quite old. That said, we will not be shedding the DRM, so this topic is essentially moot. HOWEVER, it is important that people understand that we are always working out ways to make the experience as painless as possible. As it stands now the DRM takes about two minutes or less to activate. With the new automation it will be even less, and it's extremely painless. We're pretty easy going about the additional licenses as well.

The arguments made here about people using torrents not willing to buy is something I completely disagree with. After all, the product had to legitimately be purchased by somone for it to eventually get in the wild somehow! We went the route of a non-DRM release initially with the MU-2. It went well until a week later when someone purchased the MU-2 legitimately and then put it up for the world on torrents. We lost great revenue during this time and upgraded the MU-2 to work on a new version of X-Plane in addition to implementing DRM. Needless to say (and rather assuredly at that) the MU-2 sales revived at a rather rapid rate and we were able to attempt to make our living off of this. Like it or not, it's here to stay. If you're against it, we respect you and you're reasonings. If you're wanting a great experience in X-Plane and wish to continue having great add-ons churn out, then this is our way of "job security." As much as I truly wish I could say otherwise, I can't.

We have done our very best to keep support requests on DRM issues down to a minimum, often answering back within minutes to show our customers we DO care about your needs, and we respect you just the same as much as we respect our own security measures.

Best Regards,

Cameron

[StevenM]

Needless to say (and rather assuredly at that) the MU-2 sales revived at a rather rapid rate and we were able to attempt to make our living off of this.

That's interesting. Besides the fact you can make a living out of a add-on for a niche market product you think the DRM was the main factor for the increase the sales or did other market factors also help?

To be clear I'm not attacking you in any way for using the DRM but as a developer/publisher msyelf I'm always very interested in other peoples experiences. The pro-contra DRM arguments are clearly documented all over the web but the real world experiences from developer/publisher standpoint are not so well known.

Oh, and the future improvements for the activation sound nice.

[Cameron]

That's interesting. Besides the fact you can make a living out of a add-on for a niche market product you think the DRM was the main factor for the increase the sales or did other market factors also help?

A number of us (including myself) have made this our only living. It was quite evident the DRM was doing its job. When X-Plane was no longer able to run the MU-2 properly without the updated flight model and new programming that was only available in the DRM version, people were left to buy it if they wanted to continue to enjoy it. It was a very short timespan (couple of days) from the time the torrent started to the DRM version release. It was also then that sales regained normal status and more.

For the record, I take no offense to what you or anyone else has said. Just as you say what you see and feel, I do the same. We're all entitled to have an opinion and a voice.

In regards to effectiveness:

My personal belief is DRM only works effectively in such niche markets. A lot of people (and I mean no offense by this) who are torrent users are the very young crowd from 12+. These are people with no jobs and usually rely on their parents to give them money. If the product is available on a torrent then it's free to them and they don't have to risk having their parent(s) saying "No" to getting something they want. If it's not available on a torrent, then they go to the one financially responsible and pop the question. Additionally, there are just those people that will check torrents to save a buck, and buy it if they have to. I think DRM is pointless in markets with products that every person out there wants. Such products that fall into this category are Operating Systems and Adobe products. There are simply way too many people willing to crack the software which allows those that truly use torrents to do so, and then Those that are truly honest will stay honest.

In the world of X-Plane we haven't hit that crowd yet, but as we continue to grow our market and customer base we may hit this road block. At that time it may be something we'll need to re-evaluate, but as it stands now our system works, and prevents what it's supposed to.

Best,

Cameron

[StevenM]

Again interesting, thanks for answering. It clarifies a lot.

[Kesomir]

We're pretty easy going about the additional licenses as well.

Can I clarify this - I have a vague recollection of it being answered before - but the search function fails me at the moment.

If I were to buy a product off of x-aviation, what is the license?

Am I allowed to use it myself on any computer I have?

Am I allowed to use it on one computer only at a time - and I can move the 'set / enabled computer'

Am I only allowed to use it on one computer and if I change that computer in the future, I have to rebuy?

I ask this because I cannot see any information about this on the x-aviation site, and it should really be made clear on the product pages or before purchasing - what any use restrictions there are.

[Cameron]

If I were to buy a product off of x-aviation, what is the license?

Each product has a different license according to developer wishes. Such licenses can be found in the documentation of purchased products, but the bare minimum is that the product can only be used on one computer at a time per key issued.

Am I allowed to use it myself on any computer I have?

When first purchased, you are issued one key for a single machine. We issue additional keys on a case by case basis if a message is sent in to us. We realize many people have a laptop and desktop (or even a Mac and a PC), so we can accommodate this.

Am I allowed to use it on one computer only at a time - and I can move the 'set / enabled computer'

See above. If you decide to upgrade your computer you are also free to get a new key set and de-activate your old one. A lot of people do upgrades to their computers to keep up with the times, so it only makes sense we allow this.

Am I only allowed to use it on one computer and if I change that computer in the future, I have to rebuy?

Again, see reply above. In short, the answer is "No," you don't have to re-buy the product. You already paid for it, so you're entitled to use it for as long as you like.

[MdMax]

Hello !

I also bought the MU-2 and I love this add-on. It's really an excellent product. But I'm like dainja556, and I can't stand DRM. I call this Digital Restrictions Management, because it handles only restrictions, no rights. I hesitated a lot before buying the MU-2, because of the DRM. I had to search if it's compatible with my operating system. DRM are making products fragile and I know I'll not be able to use it more than 2 or 3 years, not "for as long as I like". It's not a sustainable product and that's why it's difficult for me to recommend it.

Just an example: long time ago I bought an Airbus A310 from SimSoftWorkshop. At the time it came out, it was the most detailed Airbus simulation for Flight Simulator. Today there's no more way to contact the author and vendor because his website is off-line since about 2 years. The DRM makes it impossible to reinstall and use the product I purchased.

You're right when you say it takes only 3 minutes to install the MU-2, but then, you can't forget the DRM. It's good to know I'm allowed to change my computer, thank you ! But why isn't it possible to know that, and to read the complete license of the product before buying the product ? Would you sign a contract without reading it ? Do you accept to sign a contract without knowing its terms ? I did that when purchasing the MU-2. Here you have to buy the product before knowing what you are able or allowed to do with it.

Now each time I will upgrade my computer, I'll need a new key, and ask for a permission to reinstall the add-on. I'm guilty until I prove I'm not. This is not compatible with the constitution in my country. This means also that I will always need an access to the vendor's site and wait for his answer, I hope my ISP will be reliable that day. And I don't know when a new key will be requested by the add-on. Is it if I change the motherboard, the CPU, the GPU ? Or is it also if I change from Ubuntu Linux to Debian or Fedora or Suse Linux ?

I'm sad that most good products are infected by DRM technology. I'm sad that authors and vendors still consider the DRM as a solution against piracy even if it's only a problem for their customers who paid for it. It's just defective by design.

But as I said, I love the aircraft, and enjoy every moment I'm flying it.  

Best regards and happy flying to all.  8)

[Simmo W]

Nice heartfelt MSG mdmax. I'd send one as long to Cameron every time I reconfigd my pc, to ensure I kept access to my javelin/seamax/moo. Happy to have some inconvenience to stop 12 yo's from threatening future developments. Such drm keeps prices down as well. Unfortunately, some human contact is probably the best form of security, in these days of sophisticated yet easy piracy.

[Kesomir]

Cameron, thank you for that clarification. I understand the position you take and want nothing more than for you and the aircraft developers to succeed in this niche hobby of ours - it only brings more enjoyment to us after all.

I agree with MDMax that the being able to view the licences before purchases would be clearer and more transparent. I know that after purchase, we can reject the license and request a refund if it's not to liking, but please consider this change for the future - perhaps even an overview like steam or direct2drive does - a drm icon, perhaps with a summary on it, or clickable to view a more detailed page.

I don't know if it isn't done because it just wasn't considered, if it's thought to be likely to restrict sales or for another reason (time).

Additionally, please consider having a utility to generate the keys already built (or another option) so you could release a method for people to continue using the aircraft if you happen to go out of business.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[tkyler]

Here you have to buy the product before knowing what you are able or allowed to do with it.

You know I totally agree with the idea of knowing what you are getting into before purchasing a product...this is some information we need to better make available to potential customers. 

All arguments are valid here...I dislike DRM myself.  This post goes beyond DRM though...The condition is a bit deeper than most surface arguments here.  The issue is one of selfishness on the part of every participant in the "system".  Vendors get selfish and don't want people stealing their stuff...nobody does.  Users don't want any hassles and want access to the stuff they bought without restriction, everybody does....and get this, I know developers who loathe pirates and pirating..and they themselves use pirated software to develop their products....you gotta be shittin' me!  I had a developer who wanted to pair up with me to do some work...he was using a rather expensive software package and recommended I use it too, so he sent me a link to a pirated version to download. I quit talking to him that day.  I don't like the double standard.  There are those who only care how things affect them..and those that have consideration for how things affect others....I fall in the latter camp.  We're not dealing with DRM as much as we're dealing with character issues, that's why this debate carries a bit of passion, we're all calling into question character here and that is a very personal issue.

Cameron touched on the idea of products that are so prevalent and companies so rich (so we believe) that you don't feel like you're hurting anybody when you steal from them.  Do you know that Studio Max is upwards of 3500.00US and Photoshop is something like 600.00US.  That's big money for some "hobby" developers...I'd bet half the payware developers for x-plane use pirated software..at least Photoshop.  I myself use all open source for a reason...and I also own a license for Adobe's creative suite.    I'd love to hear their justifcations about the software they're using...after they get past their "uh...uh..uh..."

So then, how can one want DRM for their own work, yet use pirated software?  I use the example to highlight the point of selfish intention as the basis for all arguments here.  We all want what is most convenient to us; however, and this is the point I want to make, we don't live isolated in this world, we live in a community and in such a social dynamic, there's "give and take" whether you like it or not.  Consideration for others point of view is mandatory to a smooth co-existence.  Some accept that and deal with it, some don't like it...but one thing is for certain and that is you can't please everybody and somebody has to pay the price for ANY decision.  Here's another example of selfishness and double-standard.  So you won't buy the MU-2 because of the DRM as it implies mistrust and you take that personal...so then, do  you refuse to fly commercial because screening makes you feel like a mistrusted terrorist?  I highly doubt that.  So you embrace your stance in one scenario and then conveniently put it aside for another...when it suits you...hey... we all do, I get it! 

So while I don't like DRM myself, we're balancing two issues here.  Either vendors have people steal from them or other people have to have an inconvenience with the DRM or possibly loose their investment if the DRM can't be obtained.  If my kids were to present me with such a conundrum, I'd vote in favor of limiting the theft as it's the right stance to take.  Neither situation is perfect, but someone has to "take it for the team"  Now I practice what I preach here...the MU-2 on my machine uses the DRM too, my non-open source software have licenses so I can soapbox here.

I understand why DRM is necessary...I understand that a few people ruin it for everybody.  I understand that as a citizen of the community I have to give up a little to make sure the community moves forward with development.  It's the price of living in a unperfect world with unperfect people with little to no respect for others (which is why 12 year olds steal in the first place..cause many of them can't sense that wrong). 

By understanding the way things are, I then do not take something like DRM as a personal statement that I'm a thief or mistrusted.  For those that see it and actually feel it that way, I think you're hurting yourselves by clinging to a view that, while altruistic, isn't reality.  A quote I really like is

"....disappointment is the difference between expectations and reality". 

If you expect to have all the rights that you believe your entitled to in an unperfect world such as this, then get ready for a cargo-load of disappointment.  You can choose to live in a disappointed state, or relent your expectations a little and ease the burden on your soul.

Now in the spirit of respecting the position of others, which is paramount to me...The one thing that drives my approach to DRM is simple.... put as much control in the customers hands as possible.  They DO have the right to use the product that they've purchased in any way they see fit within the bounds of the license.  If we can get both the product and the DRM in the control of the end-user, we'd be all over it...indeed it's what we want.  Kesomir is right on the money, we should make a best effort to respect the customer given the state of software distribution.

[garrettm30]

I had a developer who wanted to pair up with me to do some work...he was using a rather expensive software package and recommended I use it too, so he sent me a link to a pirated version to download. I quit talking to him that day.  I don't like the double standard.

Thank you for your integrity. We need more of it in this world.

[YYZatcboy]

Back when I was at school, I had to use pirated software in order to do my school work in my Music Classes. In order not to feel guilty about it, I promised myself that as soon as I could afford it I would buy the software that I use. 1600$ is a lot to a full time student who worked full time while going to school in order to be able to afford it. I could use the school's software in the labs, but they were only open while I was in other classes, or at bad times for me. (I worked till 22-2300 at a theatre, and 8-10 AM lab times with the three hour commute was impractical). I got an A in that class using the pirated software, which lead to my graduation with an excellent GPA. I then joined the military, and while I was away on Basic Training and had a bit of money I bought all the software that I had used before then.

I appreciate that the software was available by Torrent. It was like a loan from the company in my mind. Without it I probably would not have made it through university, or at least not with the GPA I had. It's a grey area. I am glad I was able to buy the software, but does the two years I "borrowed" it make me a bad person? I don't know...

I don't mind the DRM here. I figure by the time the DRM breaks, the aircraft will have broken too due to lack of support for the constant changes in X-Plane.

[Cameron]

I don't know if it isn't done because it just wasn't considered, if it's thought to be likely to restrict sales or for another reason (time).

To be quite frank, it wasn't ever considered...a long time ago. We have vouched OURSELVES internally to change this with a new web design coming forward. It is right that people know and are aware of what they are getting into. We have no intention of deceit.

Additionally, please consider having a utility to generate the keys already built (or another option) so you could release a method for people to continue using the aircraft if you happen to go out of business.

This is already done, and is in trusted peoples hands should someone like myself have something go wrong. Of course, this will never be seen in the wild UNLESS something goes wrong. We have also taken an EXTRA step further and implemented it so that X-Aviation backs up and has a key generation system on Google's servers...if X-Aviation ever goes out of business, Google is there to save the day. If Google goes under, I think the end of the web would be near. It's honestly about as safe as it gets, and the problems you see typical today where people aren't able to activate a product because someone is out of business is NOT a problem you will ever experience from X-Aviation whether we're in business or not. As said, we believe that if you paid for it, it IS yours for as long as you wish.