richjb

Depends on how you set up the approach in the FMS. If you plan to fly the full ILS procedure from the IAF or from a feeder fix, the FMS will handle nav-to-nav transfer automatically once APP is selected in the flight guidance panel. Once the localizer comes alive, the system will switch from FMS to LOC, magenta needles will change to green needles. The glideslope will capture normally. If you are receiving ATC vectors for the approach and have selected the VECTORS option when you load the loaded the approach, the process is similar. Once you receive radar vectors, then you can go direct to the FAF waypoint and then select the intercept course option (i.e., make the inbound course in the CRS field big) to extend the RNAV final. When you receive your intercept vector, you may: 1. Select NAV to intercept the FMS magenta line to intercept the inbound course to the FAF. This procedure should be used if you are outside of the localizer SV or are on the fringes of it when ATC issues the clearance. The Collins system has nasty habit of capturing a false localizer. Transport Canada covers this very well in their AIM after a CL604 dang near flew into the side of hill near Vancouver many years ago. I have captured false localizers in Collins-equipped DA2000 and in the Honeywell-equipped Lear 45 in the US after selecting APP mode too early. I have even seen it turn the wrong way and fly outbound if APP is armed at a 90 degree angle to the final approach course. Wait until you are within a 30 degree intercept heading to the final approach course and within the localizer service volume before arming APP. In fact, I will often let the NAV capture the final approach course in LNV and then ARM approach when the FAF is the active inbound fix. This especially true if I have stepdown altitudes prior to the FAF and I need to use VNAV to comply with these intermediate segment stepdown altitudes. These altitudes may be for terrain, airspace (e.g., Class B compliance), or for air traffic separation purposes (e.g., simultaneous parallel independent approach operations). Capturing the glideslope too early, especially on hot days and result in busting those altitudes. Remember, the altimeter reads HIGH when it's warm, while the glideslope is an "iron rail" that doesn't care about temperature. It will take you BELOW those charted altitudes on hot days. Same is true for LPV approaches from the intermediate fix (IF) inbound. I waiting to test a known issue in the Collins FMS in HS CL650, X-Plane, and hot temperatures at KDFW on the RNAV (GPS) approaches. 2. You can select APP Mode when cleared for the approach or cleared to intercept the final approach course. Nav-to-Nav transfer will occur when the localizer capture parameters are met, and the needles will switch from magenta to green. If you are NOT cleared for the approach, you need to switch back to NAV mode to prevent premature glideslope capture and then re-select APP mode when cleared for the approach. This technique is also used if intercepting the localizer for a LOC only or LDA approach. Also, for the reasons above, you need to look out for false localizer captures and make sure that you meet the intermediate segment stepdown altitudes prior to the FAF. Selecting APP mode when cleared for the approach should wait until your heading is within 30 degrees of the final approach course and within in the localizer service volume. On a simple approach with no stepdown altitudes or when receiving vectors at an altitude below these altitudes, this is the easiest. 3. When on vectors, you can manually switch to green needles and select APP mode when cleared for the approach, when the heading is within 30 degrees of the final approach course, and when you're within the localizer service volume. Some folks like to use #3 because they have been bitten by Nav-to-Nav transfer. At 30 NM from the ARP, the Collins FMS will auto-tune the ILS or LOC frequency and set the inbound course in background. If you are unfortunate enough to execute a Direct-To in the FMS at the time that this auto-tuning is occurring in background, there is a chance that the inbound course will not be auto-set. This happened to me once on the LDA Rwy 25 approach into KEGE. We received a Direct-To clearance to QNDRY right as we were at the 30 NM distance from the ARP. While the radios both tuned to the localizer frequency of 109.75, the captain's CDI did not change in background to the inbound course of 250. We used the FMS in LNV and VNAV to laterally and vertically navigate the approach to just prior to WASHI, the FAF, then selected APP mode. I was in the right seat, and my CDI was set to 250; however, the captain's CDI course was set to something else, if I recall 360. Needless to say, we had some last minute changes to make. As result, some pilots (not me...) do not trust Nav-to-Nav transfer and set up the CDI course on their own. There are many different techniques. You may use differing techniques based on the needs of the approach that you're flying and how you're being handled by ATC. Rich Boll

I am amazed at how close HS got to the real Collins FMS!

You can also change the VNAV path angle from the LEGS page. For example, on the LVZ4 STAR into KTEB, it is common to get STENT at FL350. The LEGS page will look something like this: JHW HOXIE DMACK 3.0 STENT /FL350 In the scratch pad, you can type in "1.5" and then line select it over the "/FL350" for STENT. That will change the descent angle to 1.5 to STENT at FL350: 1.5 STENT /FL350 A 1.5 descent angle results in a 1000 - 1200 FPM descent rate, depending on headwind or tailwind. This keeps you within the RVSM descent rate requirements, i.e., not to exceed 1500 FPM. It doesn't affect your default settings either. It's a one time change. You can also use this method to restore the default vertical angle. The next waypoint after STENT is LVZ, which is an "expect FL180" constraint. Often times, we'll program that constraint ahead of time. When you enter the AT FL350 for STENT, the VNAV draws a geometric path between STENT at FL350 and LVZ at FL180, which usually equates to a 1.8 degree or so path, which might be too shallow. You can type "3.0" in the scratch pad, and line select it up on the LEGS page next to the FL180 at LVZ and that will change the angle back to 3.0. It also makes for a smoother path transition to join the VNAV path from LVZ to MUGZY at 6000. Rich

How far out are you from TOD when the FMS Flight Plan Target Altitude is not showing? Are you close enough to execute a Vertical Direct-To? Use the DIR button on the FMS, line select the altitude constraint into the scratch pad, then place it back from the scratch pad to the altitude constraint LSK. the EXEC should illuminate, Execute the change to execute a Vertical Direct-To. See if the constraint shows in magenta then. Rich

So I have a question... Did HS CL650 implement the 1 leap second GPS almanac bug???? That would be the height of realism! Thanks, Rich

The pilots used to tow our airplanes. After a few close calls, we put the kibosh on that.

Sounds familiar... Glad I'm not the only one! Rich

I check the HS CL650 and line selecting DELETE into the FUEL USED line of the FLIGHT LOG page will not reset the fuel used to zero. I'm 95% certain that this is not correct behavior because it has worked in the DA2000 (PL4 & FMS 6000), the CL300 (PL21 & FMS 5000) and CL350 (PL21 Enhanced & FMS 6200). Still, Bombardier might have asked Collins to set this up differently in the CL650. I filed it over on the Support page. Rich

On the "Flying the Challenger" page, there is a question reseting the fuel used in the FMS. On the Collins FMS that I flown, which includes the 6000 in the DA2000, The 5000 in the CL300 pre-PL21 Enhanced, and the 6200 in the CL300/CL350 with the PL21 Enhanced, all can reset the fuel used by using the DELETE key and then line selecting the DELETE over t he LSK for the FUEL USED. That action zeros the fuel used. I tried that today in HS CL650 and I got an INVALID DELETE MSG. I'm not sure that's correct. I check the latest edition of the Collins FMS manual for the CL60/650 and it does mention anything about the DELETE key zeroing the fuel. For what it's worth, the CL350 PL Enhanced Collins FMS manual doesn't say anything either about the DELETE key zeroing the fuel on the FUEL USED field. I suspect that this is an undocumented feature of the Collins FMS, but I know that it does work. Might be something to confirm in the actual CL650, but I don't see why this FMS would work different for this particular page. For implementation if found to also work in the CL650. Thanks, Rich

There are a few ways you can do this. First, if you are going to a single altitude constraint, say an along track waypoint, destination/-30 at 10,000, then you can use the DIRECT TO button on the CDU, line select the altitude into the scratch pad, and then re-enter it for the along track waypoint. That will re-sync the VNAV and execute a vertical “direct to”. If you’re in VNAV mode, e.g., VALT or VVS, the aircraft should recapture the VNAV path and change to VPATH mode. You can do this with any altitude constraint and create a vertical “direct to”. The second method is used of you’re descending on a STAR with multiple constraints. You can use the same method above to execute a vertical direct to the next altitude constraint. However, of that constraint is an “at or above”, then you have just changed that constraint into an “at” constraint. That will affect the downstream VNAV path angle after that constraint. You will comply with the altitude constraints on the STAR, but you may fly them at a much shallower VNAV path angle. Basically, the Collins VNAV uses the default VNAV path angle (3.0 but can be changed) and the lowest “AT” constraint, or the lowest “AT or BELOW” constraint, and then checks that 3.0 degree path back up through the remaining higher altitude constraints. If that path meets all coded/pilot entered altitude constraints, then the 3.0 path is used. If not, then the VNAV path is “smooth” between the constraints where is doesn’t work until it can again project a 3.0 degree path back to the cruise altitude for TOD. On a STAR with many altitude constraints, the best way to recapture the VNAV path from above when ATC interrupts the descent is to use either VVS or VFLC and descend at a rate equal to or faster than the target vertical speed shown on the vertical speed indicator (pink target bug) or as shown on the MFD Vertical Path information display. The only catch is that if the target constraint is a window altitude constraint, one that is both “at or above” and “at or below” altitudes, you need to make sure you capture VPATH before you reach that waypoint. Otherwise, you risk not meeting the “at or below” constraint. This is my preferred real world method. Rich

The same limitation is in the CL300/350 too, and to common to all Bombarider Collins FMS equipped aircraft. The reason for the limitation is that if for some reason the FMS looses the speed values entered into the PERF VNAV CLIMB page, the climb Mach speed reverts to M.50, which would be very bad if you are climbing in VFLC and the FMS ACTIVE SPEED on the PERF page in a ACTIVE <mach> speed, i.e., the speed bug and VFLC speed reference is pink. The airplane would pitch up and try to track M.50. At FL330, that would get exciting! You can climb in VFLC with and IAS value in the PERF ACTIVE <speed> active, i.e., a pink speed bug set to IAS, but when it transitions to Mach, you need to change to FLC, or you can move the speed bug which will change the target speed from the FMS ACTIVE speed to a FCP speed, i.e., CYAN/blue bug. Simply put, when in FLC or VFLC, you want the target speed bug showing cyan/blue. Rich

Just to clarify, a missed approach climb gradient and SID/Obstacle Departure Procedure ODP climb gradient are based on normal, all engines operating aircraft performance: https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2018/InFO18014.pdf The approach (one engine inoperative’ and landing climb (all engines) gradients provided on the APPROACH REF page 3/4 are spot gradients at the airport pressure altitude and temperature. These climb gradients are certification requirements, but do provide a gouge on climb performance on a missed approach or rejected landing provided the missed approach climb is relatively short. I suspect this example, by the looks of the landing minima is a mountain airport. At such an airport, I would have the one engine inoperative departure procedure for that runway programed in the ALT LEGS page and ready to fly should I go missed or rejected landing and then have the engine fail. Rich

Go to the PERF Menu and select FLT LOG. Reset the Fuel in the FLT LOG page. FLT LOG should pop up automatically during the landing rollout. Rich

I did a test of this yesterday in the CL350 that I fly. We use ARINC as our CSP, who would provide us with AOC weather METAR, TAF, and NOTAM data. You have to enter "K6A2" into the REQ TERMINAL WX page. If you enter "6A2", the system will display a "FORMAT ERROR" in the scratch pad. The "K" needs to be present in the airport or METAR ID. Hope this helps, Rich Boll

Soooo....with an empty leg, good clear VFR weather, and an understanding co-pilot, I did a little flight direct experimentation trying to replicate the video in Hotstart in the Challenger 350....not 650, I don't fly that model. Same Collins Proline Enhanced system. I was to say the least surprised with APPR LOC and GS active, when the aircraft was pitched up smoothly but rather swiftly, that the flight pitch bar initially followed the pitch change for about 2.5 degrees (one mark on the pitch ladder) much like what you saw in the Hotstart CL650 video. I was able execute a slight pitch up and then re-stabilize several times. In case anyone from FAA is reading, I was stable speed throughout the approach with only a slight GS deviation and ceased the activity to stabilize at 500' all the while in clear VFR conditions to meet stable approach criteria. I have good friend who worked in pilot training and customer support in Collins for many years. He has trained me on the Collins equipped aircraft that I have flown in the last 20 years. He agreed with me that the Hotstart CL650 was not how he expected the flight director pitch bar to behave. I have shared my real observations with him but have not heard back yet. It also does not agree with our understanding of how flight directors work, especially with the old mechanical FD 108 and FD 109. I may ask around further. For now. it appears that Hotstart's CL650 flight director is behaving as it would in the aircraft. I'll stand corrected on my comments above. Kudos once again to the folks at Hotstart! Rich

170??? We haven't used a 170 standard average pax. weight in years.

I'm sorting through this one, still.... What I have is not 100% certain. Rich

Hi CaptCrash, et al, This morning, I flew v1.3.1 (need to download the new version) and looked closely at the flight director behavior. When basic pitch modes like ALT, VALT, FLC, and VPATH are active, the flight behavior appears to be correct in that the FD pitch bar does not move and follow aircraft pitch changes. In other words, you can fly the airplane symbol up and down through the FD pitch bar, and bar does not initially move and also follow the FD pitch bar as is shown in the video when an APPR LOC and GS are active. I flew the ILS 1R at KICT and the FD pitch bar exhibited the same behavior. As shown in the video, if an aircraft pitch change is made, the FD pitch bar initially follows that pitch change, e.g., pitch the nose up a few degrees, and the FD pitch bar follows it for a few degrees until the GS begins to deflect. I spoke to a friend who worked at Collins for a number 15 years and trained us on the Collins equipment about this and show him the video. He said that was not how it works. The FD pitch bar should remain steady and initially not move with the pitch change, and in fact, in anticipation of the GS needle moving downward it should deflect slightly downward. What the HS CL650 is doing with the respect to the ILS GS and the FD pitch command is not correct. Next, I flew the RNAV (GPS) Y 1R at KICT. The approach was flown with LPV Level of Service (LOS). Initially, I used VNAV to descend through the T-Legs from BACAY. When tracking the VNAV in VPATH vertical mode, the FD pitch bar behaved as expected. In other words, you could change the aircraft's pitch attitude through the FD pitch bar without that command bar also moving. Naturally, as deviated off the VNAV path, the FD pitch bar would command a return to the path. Approaching the FAF (CUTIK), I selected APP Mode and the vertical guidance changed to VGP. In VGP mode, the FD pitch bar behaved like it does in the ILS GS mode, and as shown in the video. The FD pitch bar moves with aircraft pitch changes. As noted, this makes it very hard to track the FD command bars and track the VGP path. Next, I came back and again flew the RNAV (GPS) Y 1R at KICT. This time, I downgraded the approach to LNAV/VNAV LOS by selected the ARRIVAL DATA page, selecting the APPR MODE to "RNP", which selected the GP MODE To "BARO". (see screen shots attached). So instead of flying LPV SBAS generated angular vertical guidance, the FMS would be using Baro-VNAV, linear guidance just like in the en route phase, but with smaller scaling. On this approach with LNV and VPATH as the FD modes, the FD pitch bar behaved as expected. The FD pitch command bar did not move and follow with aircraft pitch changes, but rather remained steady until there was a vertical path deviation at which it showed a command correction to return to the path. It appears that the flight director issue is in both the ILS GS and LPV VGP vertical modes, that the FD pitch bar will initially follow a pitch change before it computes that maybe it shouldn't have, and then as the GS or VGP moves from the centered, "on glideslope/glidepath" position, the FD pitch bar initiates a command correction to command a pitch change to the return the aircraft to the glideslope/glidepath. In both cases, as the aircraft pitch changes, the in GS or VGP, the FD pitch bar should not change and initially follow the aircraft pitch change. It should not move until the GS or GP needle begins to move off path, or according to my source from Collins, it should make a slight anticipatory command opposite of the pitch change to return the aircraft to GS/GP. At the very least, the FD pitch command bar should mimic the behavior in VPATH or the other basic FD pitch modes like ALT. These easily demonstrated in level flight with ALT engaged, in a descent following a vertical path and in VPATH mode, or on an RNAV approach using RNP and BARO set in the ARRIVAL DATA page (ps...kudos for getting this page right!). I hope that this will help with the troubleshooting. Thanks, Rich

Just an update... I started a new airframe for v1.3.1 and everything seems to be working. I'm getting ready to fly it. Thanks for your help! Rich

"intriguing"??? You're being polite! :-)

Thanks CaptCrash, I'll see what I can do! The Falcon is about the sweetest business jet to fly, alongside the Sabreliner. They both had no flying vices. The Falcon's systems were another story. They were a nightmare. Three or four switch changes just to move fuel from wing tank to the next. Only airplane I've ever flown where after a V1 cut and continued takeoff, if raised the flaps and forgot to tie the busses, and the left engine failed, you would lose the left ADC and be without an airspeed indicator to fly V2. Left me shaking my head! Never had a chance to fly the Gulfstreams but have friends who do. The consistently use the phrase "bulletproof" to describe that airplane!

Let me first check my math. Started flying the Collins FMS and Proline 4 avionics in the Falcon 2000 in 2004. We flew that aircraft for five years at which time we upgraded to the Challenger 300 with the Proline 21. We upgraded to the ProLine 21 Enhanced on our two CL300s in 2016, and in 2018 we added a new CL350 to the fleet that had the Proline 21 Enhanced with IRU. Doesn't look the same as the CL650, but functionally it is all very close. Let me say as well, and as I have said on other post, you folks have nailed the Proline 21 and the complexities of a business jet. The Hot Start CL650 is unprecedented! It's hands above anything else in the flight sim market. I don't care about MSFS anymore. I haven't touched P3D since Christmas. I can't say that I have specific reference documentation for what I described as that would be in the engineering manuals that are not typically available to operators or pilots. That said, I will see what I can find out for you on the subject. What I described is typical of all the flight director systems that have flown, be it the old mechanical FD 108/FIS 84 & FD 109/FIS 85, the Honeywell Primus (Lear 45), Collins, or the Garmin G5000 I'm flying the Lear 75. Speaking of Lear 75, I am in school next week. I can see if I can shoot a video with similar profile off path to what was shown on the sample video above. Let me continue looking at this for you. Thanks! Rich

Hi Captain, I created a new airframe, and I was able to start the program, move into the FBO, and start taking the plugs, pins, and covers off the aircraft. So, it looks like it works. The log file is attached. I am going to guess that my old airframes and situations set to v1.2.3 are toast? Thoughts? Thanks, Rich Boll Log.txt

Hello Hot Start, I upgraded to v1.3.1 and I have had CTD on every attempt to start using the career mode. I have several saved configurations from ver. 1.2.3. Not one of these are starting, and each time results in a CTD. If I select the non-persistent mode, then I looks like it starts, but I have not flown it for any period of time. Through the non-persistent mode, I was able to update the license entry for X-Aviation. I did follow the CTD procedures and removed all the plugins except the ones identified. Here's the backtrace: Backtrace is: 0 00007FFF209A4F69 C:\Windows\System32\KERNELBASE.dll+0000000000034F69 () 1 0000000080361F06 J:\X-Plane 11\Aircraft\X-Aviation\CL650\plugins\systems\win_x64\systems.xpl+0000000000371F06 (fcc_main+686) 2 00000000804EFBD1 J:\X-Plane 11\Aircraft\X-Aviation\CL650\plugins\systems\win_x64\systems.xpl+00000000004FFBD1 (runpool_worker+1201) 3 00000000804E7F5F J:\X-Plane 11\Aircraft\X-Aviation\CL650\plugins\systems\win_x64\systems.xpl+00000000004F7F5F (_lacf_thread_start_routine+f) 4 00007FFF226B7034 C:\Windows\System32\KERNEL32.DLL+0000000000017034 () 5 00007FFF23022651 C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll+0000000000052651 () --=={This application has crashed!}==-- Is it possible to rollback to the previous version and still retain my saved configurations? Thanks! Rich Boll Wichita, KS Log.txt

So, I'll chime on this topic. If you watch the FD's pitch bar behavior beginning 0:09 in the video, you will see that as the pitch attitude increases from 0 (at 0:09) to 5 NU (0:12) you see that the FD pitch bar follows the pitch attitude increase. At 0:09, both the FD pitch command bar and the aircraft symbol pitch attitude is 0 NU. As pitch attitude was increased from 0 NU to 2.5 NU, the FD pitch bar followed it also to 2.5 NU. At about 3 NU in aircraft pitch attitude, the FD pitch bar stopped moving and following the pitch attitude increase of the aircraft symbol. This is not the correct behavior of the flight director system. The FD command bars pitch and roll command are generated by the flight director compute relative to attitude changes required to satisfy lateral and vertical references, in this case displacement of the localizer and glideslope needles from the centered positions. The FD does care what the actual attitude of the aircraft is at any given time. in fact, you can change attitude of the aircraft in pitch and roll instantaneously away from the FD bars, those bars would not move. You can literally pitch up and down rapidly through the FD bars, and as long as you did not displace the localizer or glideslope needles from their centered position, the FD command bars will not move. This movement of the FD bars with the changing aircraft pitch and roll attitude is a common mistake that I see in flight simulators (to that mean PC type, not the real Level D's). It makes using the FD difficult for PC pilots because they are not used to also watching the raw data, and then get into the habit of chasing the FD. The video is a very good illustration of this behavior. In contrast, watch the FD roll bar commands for the same period from 0:09 to 0:12. The minute the roll begins, the FD roll bar begins moving back to the right. It does not follow the roll of the aircraft and await a localizer displacement before moving. In roll, the FD roll bar is behaving correctly. if the FD pitch bar were behaving the same way, when the increase in pitch attitude began at 0:09, the FD pitch bar would not have moved, but remained in the same pitch attitude calculated to satisfy the current displacement of the glideslope needle from the centered, on glidepath position. Just to provide my background. 34 years flying business jets. 3 1/2 years teaching in the Learjet simulators. 17 years in Collins Proline series, and 13 years in the Proline 21. I have done these little tests in the Level C and D simulators, and in the real airplane. The FD pitch command bar and roll bars, or the "V" bar does not change with pilot-initiated pitch and roll changes. They only change, i.e., move in response to computed commands to satisfy the reference target. On another note, I saw above the comment about flying pitch for speed and power for glide path. It is always for coordinate change of both. However, as a technique, in the Challenger 300/350 with its big, sailplane type wing, I have found it easier to trim for speed, i.e., VREF, and then make small thrust adjustments to follow the glideslope/glidepath. I don't use this technique as much on the Lear 75, which is more straight wing jet. But sometimes, you have to try other tricks. I believe that if you tweak the flight director pitch command bar programming so that it does not follow pitch attitude changes, you will go far in addressing these concerns. Just one pilot's view. Thanks, Rich