Outerra + XPlane = Perfect Marriage

[azpilot]

Really looking forward to the future of Outerra in flight simulation.  It already looks better than any current simulators on the market!

[Ben Russell]

All of this is nice but without PMDG making products for it people will never take it seriously as a flight sim.

[OlaHaldor]

Wasn't X-Plane too a narrow niche product once, compared to the competition? Yet, see, it's flourishing like never before.

[HiFlyer]

Wasn't X-Plane too a narrow niche product once, compared to the competition? Yet, see, it's flourishing like never before.

 

The whole genre of Flight simulation (most especially civilian simulation) has become a narrow niche market. Anyone brave enough to stick their toe(s) into these shallow/perilous waters needs every encouragement!

 

http://youtu.be/7K8Vae4akJ4

Edited February 12, 2015 by HiFlyer

[scubajuan_new]

I don't think a "Perfect Marriage"exist, it falls in the same category as unicorns, honest bankers and decent politicians. When you add the fur like grass, 3D vegetation, the cloud engine, on top of Blade Elements Theory, Plausible World, etc. You would probably have to record the flight somehow, send it in to Pixar for rendering, and a month later, when all the rendering is complete watch what your flight look like. As an independent flight sim platform, might take some wind on it's own, But I don't see Laminar spending half their income licensing the cloud engine, specially after redeveloping their own. Sundog have made amazing improvement over the default cloud engine and Laminar have also improved the default. There is still a lot of room for improvement, and I believe that by the time X-Plane 10 reaches the end of it's development, we will be looking at a complete different animal than what we have today. 

[HiFlyer]

I don't think a "Perfect Marriage"exist, it falls in the same category as unicorns, honest bankers and decent politicians. When you add the fur like grass, 3D vegetation, the cloud engine, on top of Blade Elements Theory, Plausible World, etc. You would probably have to record the flight somehow, send it in to Pixar for rendering, and a month later, when all the rendering is complete watch what your flight look like. As an independent flight sim platform, might take some wind on it's own, But I don't see Laminar spending half their income licensing the cloud engine, specially after redeveloping their own. Sundog have made amazing improvement over the default cloud engine and Laminar have also improved the default. There is still a lot of room for improvement, and I believe that by the time X-Plane 10 reaches the end of it's development, we will be looking at a complete different animal than what we have today. 

 

I think its probably thoroughly impractical, and I couldn't imagine any scenario in which Laminar would be interested in such a project. It would probably be like trying to mate elephants and hippos. That being said, there do appear to be ways to eventually get the two programs to talk to one another, and there has been at least a tiny bit of interest expressed in giving it a try.

 

I can't see the attraction, personally, but I also have learned to never underestimate the ingenuity of interested and talented (not to mention inspired) people.

 

Somebody, somewhere just might be able to kludge together a working FrankenMonster.

 

After all, even as we speak, FSX is running on the Ms Flight engine, mostly as the result of one talented man! 

[Tom Knudsen]

Do not forget, Outerra was developed by only one man, was not X-Plane that too?

[HiFlyer]

Since clouds were mentioned, (and I had promised myself to do a glider movie with Levi's Schleicher ASK-13 conversion once clouds were in the picture anyway) I decided to go ahead and do an Outerra cloud film. Time of day was sped up by a factor 10, so those puppies were really whipping by; and nothing you would wanna try in real life! Not to mention the unsurvivable stress I put on the glider!

 

As you can see, the clouds are very alpha and have issues. That being said, what a nice Alpha!! I'm looking forward to the updates.

 

[Tom Knudsen]

 

As you can see, the clouds are very alpha and have issues

 

But what awesome clouds.. There is nothing so far especially in XP that look so good and realistic.

And as you say, still just in alpha

[azpilot]

Agreed, Tom.  Clouds look great.

[HiFlyer]

So, is it a sim yet, Mom?

 

No dear, but............

 

http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3140.0

 

Edited February 24, 2015 by HiFlyer

[HiFlyer]

Outerra tidbits:

 

In a recent chat with Flare Path, Outerra founder, Brano Kemen, admitted that…

“The (TitanIM) deal has allowed us a bit more breathing space, helping us to stabilize and expand our team. We currently have 4 coders, and are seeking more programmers with C++ and graphics background for our Bratislava/Slovakia office… …Of course, for a global military simulation you need all possible environment rendering and simulation capabilities – capabilities that players and simulator fans will welcome too. We may not use all data that Titan customers require, but all the rendering and procedural generation and simulation techniques and algorithms stay for our use. Titan is also generously donating some of their own work into our demo, this is mainly new vehicle types for which we implement the necessary back-end support, but do not have models of our own.”

“The goal is to create a global unified simulation platform that would allow third party developers to produce vehicle models, scenery and environment addons or even games/scenarios running in a single world that combines space/air/ground/sea simulation engines. We are considering the funding options (including crowd funding) needed to create a dedicated team closely working with our core team and with 3rd party developers on the platform, and preparing the necessary components and prototypes that this would require.”

 

Four guys. Not quite 7 yet, but they are getting there.

 

I still think LR being interested is more unlikely than talking monkeys, but it is intriguing, yes?

 

Playing with the F117 and trying an experiment

 

Edited February 27, 2015 by HiFlyer

[sundog]

Can you put your finger on what makes Outerra so impressive?

 

Is it fractal terrain? Laminar could add that into their own terrain engine, I would think, without too much trouble. I added it into the terrain engine for one of my demos in a few hours.

 

Is it atmospheric scattering? X-Plane already has the mechanism for this, and addons like Real Terra Haze show you what's possible with just a little tweaking.

 

Is it the trees? That's more work, but the techniques used by Outerra are published and could be integrated into X-Plane for far less effort than integrating with Outerra would be.

 

Is it their new clouds? How those are done are also pretty well understood.

 

My point is - I don't think X-Plane is really that far off from Outerra, and it would be less work, and less expensive, to update their visuals to the bar Outerra has set than to integrate with Outerra.

 

The question is, do you want to lobby LR to focus XP11 on visual improvements, or other stuff, given their limited resources?

[HiFlyer]

Can you put your finger on what makes Outerra so impressive?

 

Is it fractal terrain? Laminar could add that into their own terrain engine, I would think, without too much trouble. I added it into the terrain engine for one of my demos in a few hours.

 

Is it atmospheric scattering? X-Plane already has the mechanism for this, and addons like Real Terra Haze show you what's possible with just a little tweaking.

 

Is it the trees? That's more work, but the techniques used by Outerra are published and could be integrated into X-Plane for far less effort than integrating with Outerra would be.

 

Is it their new clouds? How those are done are also pretty well understood.

 

My point is - I don't think X-Plane is really that far off from Outerra, and it would be less work, and less expensive, to update their visuals to the bar Outerra has set than to integrate with Outerra.

 

The question is, do you want to lobby LR to focus XP11 on visual improvements, or other stuff, given their limited resources?

 

Its kind of a null argument. Its like saying what exactly makes a certain beautiful women attractive? Is it her eyes? Is it her Lips? The way she moves? The way she thinks?

 

The answer is, that as always, its a combination of factors. But in this case, perhaps its because this particular "woman" is new and open: unfettered by the past, and rife with possibility in an uncharted future.

 

As you say, anything can be rewritten, and all sorts of things can be tacked on, but there is fantasy, and there is reality. Raise your hands, those here who think its likely to happen any time soon.

 

I guess you could say, I have a pattern. Years ago (2012), I was the one who initially began lobbying for Sundog to be included in X-plane, posting videos and demos from your site, starting threads, discussing possibilities, much as I discuss Outerra, now: and pushing on the Avsim forums when the product was finally announced.

 

You want to know what the general reaction to my initial posts was? From many it was that the pictures were pretty and all, but that the existing clouds where fine. No need to change perfection, "I see nothing wrong with the current clouds, etc....." status quo, essentially. 

 

Yes, as you say, "How those (Outerra's clouds) are done are also pretty well understood" but of course thats not the whole story. Its overall execution, and eventually features thats the key, or your own product would have no market over X-plane default!

 

I've been here before! Years earlier, when I was on the Aerosoft site, pushing procedural engines, showing how roads could be pulled from Osm data, and how they needn't be flat ribbons painted on the landscape given the power of modern computers..... You want to know what the reaction was then? Yup! "I'm a flight simmer flying a plane. Who cares about roads!? FSX roads are fine" Pulling resources from important things..... etc.

 

But. Lets get to the specific question of what makes Outerra impressive to me personally, I would say that yes its the fractal terrain, but its also the malleability of that terrain. The ability to change it on the fly. Change the geometry with a click. To move roads and eventually rivers and mountains and to eventually repaint (Splat) the landscape in real time, putting into the individual users hands the ability to easily recreate their own areas with an ease we can only imagine now. Lake missing near your house? clickety click click, lake is added, back to flying.

 

Big open void that should be a shopping center? At the top of a hill? With a road leading up to it? Click click..... ten minutes later back to flying. Want to add your house? No need to even close the sim. Click, click........

 

Its the possibilities, that are impressive. Its the entire package all together, both now, and what it could be. Its the reduction in space requirements due to the way the program uses textures: the ability to seamlessly zoom from orbit to centimeter level individual blades of grass: the eventual ability to fly far beyond earth.

 

The openness.

 

Its the excitement of something new in the simulator scene. Its that Outerra is a whole world and not just planes, but potentially a boat simulation and a car simulation and a train simulation and..... whatever the designers can imagine; not static, but living and open, and something we as a community can get in on the ground floor of and influence to the better at a time when civilian sims are becoming rare as dodo's

 

You asked "Do you want to lobby LR to focus XP11 on visual improvements, or other stuff, given their limited resources?" I've encountered that same argument several times, first in X-Plane about the clouds, and later, the interface, both of which have indeed changed.

 

The question as stated seems to assume the two options are indelibly exclusive, as if LRs resources, intent, and focus are indefinitely stagnant. Not the most optimistic assumption, but in any case, my answer would be that LR will do whatever they choose to do of course. What I'm doing is simply what I have always done and what the op  suggested; explored and imagined possibilities, discussed potentials, and dreamed about the future.

 

Concluding. As I've said earlier in the thread, I consider any action from LR itself to be both unlikely and not necessarily efficient. But, much like the case of your own program, its best never to underestimate the ingenuity of outsiders with an idea, the skill to implement it, and a bit of patience/perseverance.

 

Could be some guy in his livingroom, beavering away at it as we speak. 

 

Edited for lottsa' of spelling errors, cause I suck! 

Edited March 1, 2015 by HiFlyer

[sundog]

Eloquently put, HiFlyer. The important thing is to have a vision and communicate it - sometimes it actually happens then.

[OlaHaldor]

I see atmospheric scattering mentioned. For me, Outerra nails it far more than X-Plane does out of the box. I'll gladly pay for a plane, but not for clouds or atmospheres or "more realistic dusk and dawns" textures and filters. To me, Outerra looks more organic. While X-Plane obviously has the upper hand in simulation as per now.

[HiFlyer]

I see atmospheric scattering mentioned. For me, Outerra nails it far more than X-Plane does out of the box. I'll gladly pay for a plane, but not for clouds or atmospheres or "more realistic dusk and dawns" textures and filters. To me, Outerra looks more organic. While X-Plane obviously has the upper hand in simulation as per now.

 

Outerra has a long way to go!!! For me, each sim has its pluses and minuses. Nothing matches X-plane visually at night, for instance. Nothing on earth.

 

But Outerra is advancing, and one day might dare to sit proudly side by side with its elders..

 

To that end, there is an initiative in place now to enhance the programs FDM's more towards professional standards, and a new subforum has been launched for discussions. In a flurry, a demo helicopter (Uh-60) has been released, at the same time as an F-22 has been previewed, and a video of an F-35 in VTOL testing has been posted. All part of experiments towards advancing the state of Outerras FDM's.

 

The growing Outerra community is looking for: Anyone with experience in JavaScript, XML, JSBSim, aviation in general, engineering and aerospace, as well as private, commercial and military pilots, to contribute your knowledge to this discussion. Participation will shape the final outcome and quality of the flight models, and would be greatly appreciated!

 

Outerra really is moving forwards, Guys, and for now, anything is possible!

 

http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3206.0

 

http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?board=41.0

Edited March 6, 2015 by HiFlyer

[HiFlyer]

 

[HiFlyer]

Interestingly enough, somebody seems to have gotten FSX/P3D and Outerra talking to each other. http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=2705.45

[Baber20]

Interestingly enough, somebody seems to have gotten FSX/P3D and Outerra talking to each other. http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=2705.45

Very interesting

[HiFlyer]

Very interesting

 

Well this is FSX controlling Outerra, but as a proof of concept, I can't think of why this wouldn't work for X-plane as well. Mostly though, to me, it's proof that even unlikely things are possible, when somebody with a will comes along.

 

[FloB]

I don't know which quality settings there are available for outterra...but my X-Plane installation with HD mesh v3, W2XP, some minor artwork tweaks (all freeware) and Skymaxx looks way better than this. And XP visuals are even limited by my rendering settings.

What would be the benefit of outterra then?

 

Flo

Edited November 9, 2015 by FloB

[HiFlyer]

Absolutely minimal quality settings.

 

X-plane is looking mighty good nowadays, but I think the thing to keep in mind about Outerra is really its technology and what that technology might bring to the table, and at what type of frame rates. For instance, the picture below includes fully dynamic ground and tree shadows, clouds, ambient occlusion, real time atmospheric scattering, unlimited visibility, etc at frame rates that routinely exceed 100fps on my mediocre Nvidia 770gtx, and the developers state that the sim (alpha) is still unoptimized. Considering that it runs almost exclusively of the GPU, that leaves the CPU(s) ready for other simmy-type calculations, and that's a very good thing. (one wonders what a 980 would do, or even twin gpus)

 

Outerra at medium settings, scenery created by a user in-game.

 

It simply doesn't operate in the way that anything we have right now does, and so actual 1 to 1 comparison is hard, probably even useless. What is easy to see, is the potential to do things that we can't now, like realtime in-game object placement and terrain editing, real time seasonal variation, seamless centimeter level detail from individual blades of grass to orbit and beyond....

 

I think Outerra and X-plane together is a very unlikely dream! (But it is awesome to imagine)

 

In the meantime, Anteworld really is a brand new kettle of fish. Maybe this little presentation would be more informative: http://forum.outerra.com/FMX/presentation/

Edited November 9, 2015 by HiFlyer

[FloB]

Thanks for the link, interesting read.

 

Are there any pictures or videos showing a city/urban area, agricultural area etc. It seems like outterra is all about mountains/woodland, sometimes showing a random village. Is that beyond the scope of outterra or just not_done_yet?

 

Flo

Edited November 10, 2015 by FloB

[HiFlyer]

Thanks for the link, interesting read.

 

Are there any pictures or videos showing a city/urban area, agricultural area etc. It seems like outterra is all about mountains/woodland, sometimes showing a random village. Is that beyond the scope of outterra or just not_done_yet?

 

Flo

 

The developers are currently working on OSM similar to X-planes, and have already shown some results of their experiments. (importing the entire world's roads)

 

Tonywob has already donated his world2xplane buildings, and has expressed his interest in eventually doing some work on Outerra. In the meantime yup, Outerra is mostly about creating the earth, (and eventually other worlds) which is the reverse of how most sims do things. (which is to usually start with the planes) I suspect this reversed approach will lead to a planet detailed quite a bit past our usual expectations for a world for our planes to fly in, and obviously I'm one of those looking forward to that.

 

Still, other people have asked how Outerra handles large amounts of objects, and there have been some promising experiments, indicating that the answer is "Very well".

 

One recent experiment was Acetones "Chaos city" where several thousand buildings (with shadows active) were placed, with almost no significant impact on FPS (about 5 to 8 fps)

 

Another experiment was using some low poly models with no LODs, and a 7000*4000px texture (with mipmaps) on a fairly modest system (Intel I3 3.40GHz, AMD Radeon R9 200) with the result of FPS between 45 and 50. (which is just about usual for that card anyway, buildings or no buildings)

 

Finally a video showing a large city, on a very low end graphics card. (Nvidia GT 640)

 

So I guess the answer is that yes, right now cities in Outerra are sparse, but when Osm is finally fully implemented, things (hopefully) will be amazing. In the meantime, people are making their own towns and cities with the provided (alpha) sandbox tools to place houses, rivers, roads, buildings...... In fact just about all currently placed scenery is from users............. which makes me wonder what professionals might accomplish, when the tools are complete and polished. I think Tonywob is wondering as well.  

 

Developer video, scenery editing tool progress.

Edited November 10, 2015 by HiFlyer