Heinz 787

[MaidenFan]

It would be great if this plane was freeware, but it's not worth paying for.

[MaidenFan]

Okay, the plane looks good, but the 3d cockpit needs work. It can't compete with Javier's CRJ 200.

[dpny]

he gives the false impression this thing is almost

made by Boeing. . .

He said nothing of the sort. On his website it says, " This will be a licensed by Boeing product." That's all it says. If those behind the .org newsletter have chosen to exaggerate, you need to separate the newsletter from Heinz.

and will charge an out of proportion price for it. . .

What is the proof for this? All I have seen is some speculation here, which has spiraled into personal attacks on him.

Morten, if you really don't like putting down other designer's work, and are truly interested in a cohesive X-Plane community, you could always offer to help Heinz out with information he may not have.

[Cameron]

and will charge an out of proportion price for it. . .

What is the proof for this? All I have seen is some speculation here, which has spiraled into personal attacks on him.

Morten, if you really don't like putting down other designer's work, and are truly interested in a cohesive X-Plane community, you could always offer to help Heinz out with information he may not have.

Actually, Heinz has directly stated the product will be quite pricey "because it is licensed." It's not speculated. I have no real motive to want or need to find the post, but it's in the 787 thread in the aircraft development forum (I believe) where Heinz has stated this. Check it out if you wish.

That said, Heinz does some good work overall. I like a lot of his GA planes. I do believe that as of now given the hints of a pricey product by Heinz himself, that this would indeed be an out of proportion cost. Of course, the 787 isn't finished just yet, so there's room to improve what has been seen.

I know your interest is more into the flight model and not the "pretty" side of things (as you've previously stated), so we'll chalk this up to a "everyone's taste buds are different" situation.

[WombatBoy]

The price has not been fully evaluated yet. The costs to produce is much higher than my other aircraft, but will be kept as low as possible.

From a post Heinz made today. Not a given price, but "much higher than my other planes" means it will be fairly upwards of 15-20 dollars. Not sure how much "much higher" is, but I'll guess we'll find out in a week.

[Kaphias]

I honestly remember reading somewhere that he said it would be $30+, but I can't find the post.

[Simmo W]

The price has not been fully evaluated yet. The costs to produce is much higher than my other aircraft, but will be kept as low as possible.

From a post Heinz made today. Not a given price, but "much higher than my other planes" means it will be fairly upwards of 15-20 dollars. Not sure how much "much higher" is, but I'll guess we'll find out in a week.

Hi, as I filmed the last video for Heinz, I can talk without divulging too much. I think it will be a reasonable price, and I myself was really pleased with the flight dynamics (despite the wings bouncing the wrong way, he's already fixed that). Quite a challenge to land smoothly and a cool power to weight ratio with an empty bird. No, the cockpit is not photorealistic, but a huge leap for Heinz, he's doing his best.

Latest vid here, I'll post it to the vid page. Enjoyed making this one!

[MaidenFan]

Wow, this plane is better than I thought. Keep up the good work.

[Goran_M]

Simon

No one is doubting this is a huge leap for Heinz.  I can safely assume the flight model will be extremely accurate based on his past work.  It's the promotion he and Nicolas are doing. 

When someone says "Officially Licensed by Boeing", "No guesswork involved", a vast majority of the public take that as meaning a very close to 100% flight model, systems model, FMC, programming, Accurate 3D modelling (exterior and Interior), pretty much something to represent a study sim.

When I heard about it, I was very skeptical about this being an accurate object and systems model.  Mainly because Heinz himself said he doesn't have the FCOM, POH, flight manual, etc...

Not to mention that only a small handful of Boeing employees have access to the supercritical airfoil data and I seriously doubt they will part with that information lightly.  Officially licensed or not.

I don't want to accuse anyone of being a liar, however, comparing the 787 and the CRJ, I think we can safely say which product will most likely represent a study sim. 

In any case, I'm sure many people will buy the 787.  And with the help of your videos, more people will see what he has produced via youtube.  I sincerely hope they do as Heinz is a highly respected member of the payware community who, from what I have heard, makes great flight models. 

Maybe I'm being over-critical, but I'm far more critical of my own work.

I guess time will tell.

Goran

[dpny]

The price has not been fully evaluated yet. The costs to produce is much higher than my other aircraft, but will be kept as low as possible.

From a post Heinz made today. Not a given price, but "much higher than my other planes" means it will be fairly upwards of 15-20 dollars. Not sure how much "much higher" is, but I'll guess we'll find out in a week.

Actually, the quote is "The costs to produce is much higher than my other aircraft, but will be kept as low as possible." Completely different than what you implied.

[dpny]

I know your interest is more into the flight model and not the "pretty" side of things (as you've previously stated), so we'll chalk this up to a "everyone's taste buds are different" situation.

My interest in this thread isn't an eye candy/flight model debate: it's the severe nature of the attacks on Heinz, which have impugned his design abilities, his honesty and his character. To me, this is clearly not about the plane he's making, but about something else. I'm curious what it is.

We're a community of very opinionated people, but I have never before seen those opinions clothed in attacks on someone's character.

[dpny]

When someone says "Officially Licensed by Boeing", "No guesswork involved", a vast majority of the public take that as meaning a very close to 100% flight model, systems model, FMC, programming, Accurate 3D modelling (exterior and Interior), pretty much something to represent a study sim.

Perhaps this is where the issue is. When I see "Officially licensed" and "no guesswork" I don't jump to the same conclusions you do. I think it means that Heinz is not having to scour the internet for info, because (within reason) Boeing has given it to him.

For the record, I am helping Heinz with the autopilot, bug reporting and flight model, along with Javier Cortes (although, obviously, Javier is doing all the heavy lifting). As I said before, I am posting because I have been surprised and shocked at the attacks on Heinz in this thread, as I have never seen such vitriol directed at a plane designer before.

[Goran_M]

I can see your point, but, you have to remember, no one (AFAIK) has criticised any of Heinz's previous work.  The 787 is being criticised because many people question the value of the Boeing License.  Add to the fact that it's payware, and people expect a level of quality equal to PMDG systems modelling.

You also mention that Boeing has given the information to Heinz to reproduce the 787.

In his own admission, Heinz has said he does not have the FCOM and other relevant documentation.  I have to say, to make any heavy airliner accurately without an FCOM, AOM, etc... is near to impossible.

I can understand you are wanting to help Heinz and want this 787 to be a success.  I do too.  There's room for all of us to make these add ons.  I just think if a developer is going to endorse a product, he has to be able to back it up with accurate (systems and 3D) modelling.  Saying he doesn't have some of the documentation is not really helping his case.  Regardless of what Boeing has sent him.

When I was researching the 747-200 I am making, I actually stumbled upon the official 787 FCOM, QRH, Systems and Performance Manual and Flight Operations Manual when asking for information about Boeing aircraft in general.

Anyway, I've rambled enough.  As I said, I am looking forward to seeing Heinz finish this aircraft.  We need more airliners to get the MSFS crowd even remotely interested in X Plane.  If Heinz contributes to that, it can only be a good thing.  I guess independent reviews will take any assumptions by the general public and set the record straight anyway.

[Morten XPFW]

Perhaps this is where the issue is. When I see "Officially licensed" and "no guesswork" I don't jump to the same conclusions you do. I think it means that Heinz is not having to scour the internet for info, because (within reason) Boeing has given it to him.

Like I said, I can guarantee you Boeing didn't give him anything that isn't already publicly available.

Remember, we have a B787 flight engineer on our team.

Further, he does not have the FCOM which means;

1.  Flightmodel is 100% guesswork

2.  Systems and avionics are mostly guesswork

3.  Cockpit dimensions are mostly guesswork

I have nothing against Heinz or his work and respect him as a designer.

I however have something against his MARKETING which gives a

totally wrong picture of what documentation he has for this acf, which is close to nothing

and which means the acf accuracy will be thereafter.  

So from a designer perspective I don't understand why he is even making it when

he knows so little about it.  But thats his choice.

[Goran_M]

Perhaps this is where the issue is. When I see "Officially licensed" and "no guesswork" I don't jump to the same conclusions you do. I think it means that Heinz is not having to scour the internet for info, because (within reason) Boeing has given it to him.

Like I said, I can guarantee you Boeing didn't give him anything that isn't already publicly available.

Remember, we have a B787 flight engineer on our team.

Further, he does not have the FCOM which means;

1.  Flightmodel is 100% guesswork

2.  Systems and avionics are mostly guesswork

3.  Cockpit dimensions are mostly guesswork

I have nothing against Heinz or his work and respect him as a designer.

I however have something against his MARKETING which gives a

totally wrong picture of what documentation he has for this acf, which is close to nothing

and which means the acf accuracy will be thereafter.  

So from a designer perspective I don't understand why he is even making it when

he knows so little about it.  But thats his choice.

Is this the FCOM we're talking about?

I'm obviously not going to post the whole thing.  But this thing is 1400+ pages.  And definitely not the easiest thing to get but certainly not too hard either.

[dpny]

Perhaps this is where the issue is. When I see "Officially licensed" and "no guesswork" I don't jump to the same conclusions you do. I think it means that Heinz is not having to scour the internet for info, because (within reason) Boeing has given it to him.

Like I said, I can guarantee you Boeing didn't give him anything that isn't already publicly available.

Remember, we have a B787 flight engineer on our team.

Further, he does not have the FCOM which means;

1.  Flightmodel is 100% guesswork

2.  Systems and avionics are mostly guesswork

3.  Cockpit dimensions are mostly guesswork

Assuming the above is true--and the only way you could know that was if you'd emailed Heinz and asked him what info he has and doesn't have--why did you not offer Heinz the info you think he's missing, or offer to help him get it?

[Cameron]

Assuming the above is true--and the only way you could know that was if you'd emailed Heinz and asked him what info he has and doesn't have--why did you not offer Heinz the info you think he's missing, or offer to help him get it?

Without stepping on too many toes...

It's not Morten's job to go around passing data that has been given to him in confidence. It's not easily found for a reason. I do know, without a doubt, that the material that XPFW has on hand is often times sensitive enough and requested to not be shared to outside parties on behalf of those whom provide it. Even on the XPFW team alone, there's only a select few allowed to access the information.

Heinz stands to make money off of this product. He can do his own research and requesting should he feel the need to, but given he's indicated he doesn't have the data in question, then he's made the decision not to do so, or can't get access to it for whatever reason.

I do appreciate you coming forth and admitting your affiliation to this project. It makes sense you would want to protect it. In the end, we'll just have to see the finished piece.

Best of luck to you and the team. I look forward to purchasing and reviewing the product!

[dpny]

I do appreciate you coming forth and admitting your affiliation to this project. It makes sense you would want to protect it. In the end, we'll just have to see the finished piece.

Best of luck to you and the team. I look forward to purchasing and reviewing the product!

Actually, I have no urge to 'protect' Heinz: he doesn't need protecting, and the comments on this site from a handful of people will have absolutely no bearing, whatsoever, on the success or failure of the 787.

I explained my involvement to make a point: when I saw features in the 787 were lacking that I wanted--namely UFMC integration--I offered my time to Heinz to help him implement them. I did this because it seems to me this is part of the X-Plane community's spirit: we help each other out, whether it's with time, effort, writing guides, answering questions or undertaking large things like Dan Klaue's tutorials for plane developers. It is one of the most attractive things about the X-Plane community, and its spirit has seemed very lacking in this thread.

As an aside, if Heinz has Boeing's backing, it's probably safe to assume that he might get the okay to get docs in question.

Bedtime for me.

[Cameron]

Actually, I have no urge to 'protect' Heinz: he doesn't need protecting, and the comments on this site from a handful of people will have absolutely no bearing, whatsoever, on the success or failure of the 787.

Great! Then this discussion is over!

I offered my time to Heinz to help him implement them.

You're a good man, no doubt. I look forward to seeing your contributions and enhancements to this product.

As an aside, if Heinz has Boeing's backing, it's probably safe to assume that he might get the okay to get docs in question.

One would most certainly think so, right? Given that he does have the backing of Boeing, I'm anxiously awaiting the final product and taking her for a spin. I'm assuming the systems will be nothing short of superb through the work of a plug-in to get it all right according to any Boeing spec he has.

Have a good night, dpny! No harm, no foul!

[Simmo W]

Agree, why can't we be positive on both sides? I've seen negative comments at both sides of the fence, yet I'm clearly objective and don't have any allegiances. Different planes for different markets I say. I admire all developers for their skills and hard work, and recognise that some (and their collaborators) are more talented/technically proficient than others. Some are clearly new, so we wouldn't want to discourage a future Javier or Tom or nils from giving it a go. I am a little over the org rant, I just want u guys to do your best and let the market do its work. That's what our blog is about, to celebrate our sim and community, positively.

[Morten XPFW]

Thats the one CaptainG37.  It has been distributed internally at XPFW, so if

it's through one of us you got it, I hope you keep it to yourself for the below reasons.

DPNY,

Assuming the above is true--and the only way you could know that was if you'd emailed Heinz and asked him what info he has and doesn't have--why did you not offer Heinz the info you think he's missing, or offer to help him get it?

First: You obviously do not understand that these manuals are proprietary information which

means people can loose their jobs if we redistribute them.

Second:  By doing this will also loose the source of the information that gave it too us which will

harm other projects we are working on.

Third:  He already stated at .org that he didn't have the FCOM or QRH, so I know what he has.. .

As for helping other designers with information, we help those that help us to put it that way..

[Goran_M]

No, I didn't get it through anyone at XPFW.  While I was searching for 747 material, I came across it.  I will say it was not through any developer in the X Plane world.

However, as you say, it wasn't easy to get.  And was given to me in confidence.

Goran

[MaidenFan]

Isn't this plane going to be released in a day or two?

[Simmo W]

Isn't this plane going to be released in a day or two?

just checked in with Heinz, u hear it first- aiming for mid-June, give or take a few days :-) haha, same release date as crj, give or take a few days :-)))

[MaidenFan]

How did you find out about the CRJ release? They said they wouldn't tell anybody about a release date.