MU-2 progress towards update

[tkyler]

They're almost too accurate.   Twice already I've tried to chase bugs that weren't bugs at all because  I didn't follow procedure.  I was thinking the system wasn't working when it was working perfectly.    I started up the engines....then shut them down again wanting to test the prop locks....and the props wouldn't feather and I sat there for a minute quite frustrated and then realized I forgot to take them  OFF the locks in the first place...so no way there were going to feather.   I can guarantee...I WILL hear complaints from people who think this is a bug. :-)    

I think in the end, I'll have to drop some of the obsessiveness and give up some measure of accuracy that few will ever care about or notice.

[flyinhawaiian]

I think its interesting that on the MU-2 there are manual prop locks, when on planes like the Seminole, they are automatic to prevent the props from feathering fully on shutdown...

[Nova]

Oooohh nooo!!

Please leave stuff like that in the sim!

All you need to do, is to write a good documentation  

[tkyler]

Please leave stuff like that in the sim!

I don't mean I'm going to take anything out...not at all!   There's just some things that x-plane can't simulate easiliy because the engine model is one of the "least accessible" things in x-plane.  See...when I test my systems...I really abuse them.  I try everything.   I try shutting engines down in the middle of a start...I try it with the condition lever..I try it with the RCS switches, I try it with the fuel valve switches...I try it when in reverse, I try it at idle, I try it running down the runway, etc, I try it with the mouse, I try it with keystrokes, I try it with hardware....every possible way you can shut the engine down and just about every situation...and when I go to restart / unfeather, I expect it t work in reality and in about 95% of the cases, it works fine.  I'm saying I'm going to let go of that 5% that most will never see because I'm abusing the tar out of the procedures.  One of the things I'm reluctantly giving up is a "air start procedure".  I have to totally override Austin's prop governor to do that and that will come with a lot of effort that would drastically delay a release.  It's a seldom used feature, rarely done in reality and one that my 4000 hour MU2 buddy has only done once...so that's an example of something I'm willing to let go.

[Nova]

Which type of failure would i have to set, to get the engine shutdown while in air?

The only faults i got, where either fire, loosing oil pressure or....i guess thats it.

Once i lost the whole engine (752) and i didn't even notice it while i was in cruise.

I thought it was hard crosswind

Noticed it when i later approached the airport and handling got a bit wired on FL70  :

[tkyler]

Any of the standard x-plane failures will do it.

[iamfallen]

One of the things I'm reluctantly giving up is a "air start procedure".

Does this mean that an engine failure in the air will mean a dead engine all the way to the ground, or does it mean that a modified procedure will have to be used for restart?

[tkyler]

I haven't gotten to that test yet, but I suspect a modified procedure...probably using the start button  as normal...of course this only applies in the sense of an intentional shutdown with xplane.  A "failure" certainly would keep the engine unusable in flight.

[Lukasz]

Seminole has piston engines. Feathered prop would create too much drag during a normal startup of piston engine, because of its impulse design. Bang (short kick of power) - pfff pfff pfff (engine rotates) - bang (second cylinder fires up) - pfff pfff pfff, and so on. Prop would slow it down too much during power off phase and even if you could start it up, the strain on starter, battery and electric installation would be tremendous. I have 50A in my home mains, starter can take 200-250A and though the voltage is approx. ten times lower, it's the amperage that heats the stuff up. That's why piston engined planes have this "lock" feature designed to be automatic, because it's so critical on them. And since prop pitch change and feathering mechanisms are usually operated with pressurised oil from the engine, there would be no way to unfeather the prop without engine first started.

Turbine engines burn fuel constantly, instead of cycles and because of that, are less "worried" about prop being feathered on startup. There is no need to use the starter to push the cylinders through a compression stroke, so it's just the prop moving in relatively thin air (as opposed to the one inside of cylinders). The turbine turns all the time and if you have a free-turbine engine it's even easier, as prop is totally disconnected from the engine. Theoretically you could start it with prop being tied down, however there are other reasons for not doing that. Mu on the other hand, has fixed turbine engines, but they still gain from turbine design, rather than piston.

As for the "invisible" features hidden in aircraft, I think that they are instrumental in building "immersion". Having the knowledge, that there is something, that awaits for my mistake or just watches my moves, adds that thrill to a flight, even if I'm never going to see it actually taking place.

[tkyler]

...or just watches my moves

I like that description...it very much captures what an "in depth" systems simulation is all about.

[flyinhawaiian]

Seminole has piston engines. Feathered prop would create too much drag during a normal startup of piston engine, because of its impulse design. Bang (short kick of power) - pfff pfff pfff (engine rotates) - bang (second cylinder fires up) - pfff pfff pfff, and so on. Prop would slow it down too much during power off phase and even if you could start it up, the strain on starter, battery and electric installation would be tremendous. I have 50A in my home mains, starter can take 200-250A and though the voltage is approx. ten times lower, it's the amperage that heats the stuff up. That's why piston engined planes have this "lock" feature designed to be automatic, because it's so critical on them. And since prop pitch change and feathering mechanisms are usually operated with pressurised oil from the engine, there would be no way to unfeather the prop without engine first started.

Turbine engines burn fuel constantly, instead of cycles and because of that, are less "worried" about prop being feathered on startup. There is no need to use the starter to push the cylinders through a compression stroke, so it's just the prop moving in relatively thin air (as opposed to the one inside of cylinders). The turbine turns all the time and if you have a free-turbine engine it's even easier, as prop is totally disconnected from the engine. Theoretically you could start it with prop being tied down, however there are other reasons for not doing that. Mu on the other hand, has fixed turbine engines, but they still gain from turbine design, rather than piston.

As for the "invisible" features hidden in aircraft, I think that they are instrumental in building "immersion". Having the knowledge, that there is something, that awaits for my mistake or just watches my moves, adds that thrill to a flight, even if I'm never going to see it actually taking place.

Great description, thanks for that!

[kgenus]

Thank you Kevin, that is very much appreciated.   Are you still looking to get one?   I quite miss flying in them, they are quite something to me.  I am anxious to get the next update out, it will be quite a step up from the current offering....and for those who are wondering WHEN that it....well there's a few little niggling things left that I need to hunt down.  I'm working quite furiously on V10 still and only get in the occasional weekend work on it....but I'm telling ya, it's real close!

If, in two years,  I can find the right plane that's not going to require an enormous amount of additional work some upgrades, then yes... definitely.

[tkyler]

I think I've gotten the engines simulated enough to my satisfaction....the biggest thing was behavior consistent with start up and shut down in both "cold and dark" and "engine running" scenarios, given all possible switch and lever combinations.  (Hope I didn't miss one!)   As far as I can tell (unless I've missed some real obscure abnormal procedure)....you will have to follow real-world normal procedures on start up and shut down.  The performance (RPM, EGT, power) during startup is not 100% exact as the real thing, but it's very close.   Unless you have real time in one, you probably won't notice...I barely do!   I'm letting a few buddies at it while I move on to the mundane stuff like cleaning up the light textures, a few extraneous textures that offend me in cockpit view and a few straggling animations.   I think I can say the "race" is done and I'm on the wind-down lap.  I'll look to release sometime in May.  I expect to squash a few bugs and add a few features after the release, but that will be pretty much end the V1 series.  From there, I'll move on to vastly improving the artwork for the V2 series, adding eye candy features and animations and look for any straggling systems and features worth simulating.

EDIT:  I did try an air start and though the procedure is 100% NOT REAL...it does get the engine started, though with a few "huh, what the heck is that" moment.  I'll document the procedure.

[Nova]

So elevator trim will still not be visible with 1.5?

And just for your list: the wheels are just a little bit to "big" or not enough retracted.

On a light livery, you can still see a little bit of the rear wheels.  8)

However, nice upgrade! W00T! 

[tkyler]

Elevator trim will not be visible that is correct.  Everything outside of the cockpit panel really needs a massive upgrade, including the wheels / landing_gear!   I'm on it!

And just for your list: the wheels are just a little bit to "big" or not enough retracted.

Actually, there is a "cutout" in the gear doors for this in reality.  The wheel is the right size.. its the gear door that is messed up :-P

[tkyler]

I have a particularly demanding individual beta testing the update for me and finding all sorts of stuff for me to fix...not terribly bad, but just wanted to let you know we are in those final testing phases.

[MaidenFan]

I have a particularly demanding individual beta testing the update for me and finding all sorts of stuff for me to fix...not terribly bad, but just wanted to let you know we are in those final testing phases.

SWEET!!!

[carthorse]

It does work with TrackIR.  You can click and hold and move your head around while you are manipulating the knob just fine.

[TOBS]

Hi Tom,

may I kindly ask for a release date of this update. I ask cause I cannot use the current version due to a registration problem. Cameron has no solution for it and asked me to wait for the next version, with a new registration system. Since a year or more the well payed MU2 sleeps now and I like to know when it is possible to use it again.

If you have any other idea how I get the MU2 back to work - like changing the gizmo plug script so that no registration is necessary - why not. The current situation is very unsatisfying.

Kind Regards Tom

[Cameron]

If you have any other idea how I get the MU2 back to work - like changing the gizmo plug script so that no registration is necessary - why not.

...because it doesn't currently use Gizmo, that's why.

We've been through this a time or two before, Tom. Your setup is the biggest mystery of all time to me, especially since no other customers have this issue AND because yours worked for a relatively good period of time before issues started appearing. I really do wish I had more for you, but we went through all the steps that resolve this for everyone else within a matter of a few replies. Unfortunately, such was not the case for you and 1.5 is the only answer I have for the moment. I do apologize.

[TOBS]

Cameron,

so first I asked kindly for a release date for the new MU2 that I am able to use it.

Yes for a period of time it worked - but now I have the eclipse mainboard which has 2 network connectors - as I told you. You told me maybe here is the problem. And in the manual there was no hint that this can cause problems or the changing mac adresses can cause problems. In fact I talked to Javier Cortes about that - he is using mac adresses as well and here I do not have any problems.

Yes we went over it more then one time - and it is boaring for me to - believe me. But what would you do on my point....?

I am just waiting - do not get a clear answer - other then I cannot do anything.......

Just tell me when I will get a working product or offer me something else. xaviation stuff is the most expensive stuff for xplane with the most bugs after first release - which the release of the CRJ200 shows if I look into the topics. It is ok so far - cause this planes are nice and quite well designed - and xplane needs good planes - if problems get solved - this is like it works in the business world. You as the seller has the chance to support and repair if something is going wrong. But it goes to legal stuff if the seller do not cooperate and cannot fix the problem.

As you are in the USA I cannot do more then ask your company to support this problem or to find another solution. No other products of any other xplane payware author has problems on my computer.

I wished you would agree and cooperate more.

But maybe Tom can do something - thats why I answered on his topic.

Kind regards Tom

[Cameron]

Tom Kyler cannot do anything. I have supported and answered every one of your e-mails no matter how repetitive they get.

"Buggy" is subjective, and stating each release we have is buggy is even more subjective. To you, this is buggy. To the thousands of others who do NOT have this problems, it is not a bug and this is bug free.

I have stated that I wish there was more I could offer to you. I will not re-hash this all out here, Tom. We have been over this in e-mail time and time again, and I have done my best to understand as well as tend to the learning of the situation. I gave you my suggestions, I was unable to figure this out as much as it pains me to say. My suggestion now is to wait on the 1.5 release.

You got much use out of this product for well over a year. You were supported fully in that time, and a refund was not only out of the question for basic reasons, but also technical reasons due to how long you used the product and the fact that we cannot refund back to cards after a 60 day period.

There is nothing more I can offer at the moment. I honestly wish I had all the answers and could speedily get this done. However, multiple people are involved in these projects and nothing is instantaneous. I don't know when the 1.5 release will be just as much as Tom Kyler doesn't. The best thing either one of us can tell you is we are delegating tasks as best we can while still living as best we can. We'll get there as "safely" and soon as possible.

I apologize for your frustrations. Thanks for being an X-Aviation customer.

[tkyler]

this is like it works in the business world

I do also apologize Tom...but also in the business world, decisions are made based upon statistics and you are, unfortunately, one of the "fringe cases"...a "3rd standard deviation datapoint" us geek engineers like to say.....1 in 100.  I know that Cameron has made good efforts and I am doing the best that I can also.  I assure you that, outside of laminar, nobody puts more time into x-plane development than I.  The percentage of time you've received as a customer far exceeds your percentage of the customer base.

This is not to say we don't care or are not trying, but sometimes, situations are such you simply have to say, "oh well".  Version 1.5 of the Moo, when it comes out, will hopefully help the issue AND it will be a free release for existing customers so you will still have something to look forward to when the time comes.  X-plane isn't going anywhere and it takes time to build the sim into the full-featured, robust and stable sim we all want. 

[Dozer]

If I reply to this thread, maybe I will get emailed when it is updated like it used to.

[Cameron]

If I reply to this thread, maybe I will get emailed when it is updated like it used to.

Please see here: http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php?topic=2204.msg22700#msg22700