Congrats to October "Best OF" at the org

[Cameron]

4) 'Thick thoughts'? Nice.

Sorry, man. Truth hurts, sometimes.

5) No problem. So, you 'love contributions of payware (as the founder of XPFW, and still as a member there), yes I'm sure you do, you certainly sell it.... When I was invited to join XPFR recently, I declined in part due to lack of time, and in part due to your involvement (and one other person).

I think you mean XPFW and not XPFR, of which I have no affiliation to. Either way, sorry to hear you acknoweledge you get scared off easily.

6) So, you'd vote for me in a 'Best moan about the Org contest' - even though I haven't been moaning about the Org? Guess we may have uncovered the reason why you don't seem to 'get' what the Best of the Month competition is all about.....

Don't be silly, Will. Read between the lines. If you don't get it still, it only proves my point further.

[tkyler]

I'm done trying to convince anybody of anything.  I know what I believe,  you wont' change my mind.  I'm having success in the path that I'm taking, I'm achieving what I want.   I've been told both by Nicolas and now Will that certain behavior is beneath me....well perhaps so...but if people are nipping at my feet...then I have to bend down to swat them away from time to time.  If you were aware of even half of the lies and bullshit we have documented on the org administration....you should be ashamed to defend it.  

We're witnessing such behavior right now as we post....you wonder why that post on the org linking to Javier's video hasn't been deleted? Every other one has....why not this one?  Well I know why!  Do you Will?  ....and if you know the truth and defend it...then that indeed is low.  I will continue making the best products I can and promoting the best products for x-plane no matter who makes it...because I want my community to grow.

[amerrir]

Sorry, man. Truth hurts, sometimes.

Truth from you Cameron? Well that would be news as well.

Tom, I certainly know some of the things that have been going on from here - sad as they are. I would like to think we could all be working to see the XP community as a whole grow - rather than divide.

Anyway Tom, glad to hear things are going well for you, I hope you'll continue to succeed & find less need for negativity.

[Cameron]

Truth from you Cameron? Well that would be news as well.

Haha. Oy vey. This coming from a moderator who works alongside Nicolas at the org? Not surprised.

Thanks for your contributions to the thread, Will.

[Goran_M]

Tom, I certainly know some of the things that have been going on from here - sad as they are. I would like to think we could all be working to see the XP community as a whole grow - rather than divide.

Will, There is only 1 person to blame for this division in the x plane community.  Just think what could be achieved if we all worked together!

[tkyler]

Will, I can assure you from the bottom of my heart it gives me no great pleasure to do and say some of the things I have.  I certainly don't do it out of anger, spite or revenge or personal satisfaction.....but out of what I feel to be necessity....sometimes it just must be done to facilitate a change for the better.  I can tell you I will do no more than I believe necessary to see equality restored to the community....but if I have to continue to squeeze a bit harder, then I will....regretfully so.

It's been said that I "come crying back to xplane.org from time to time" whenever I go on the offensive...but I have no more desire to promote my own work through the org anymore.  I feel confident enough to move forward on my own reputation...but for the sake of others, I'll continue along the path I think necessary to see "x-plane's community"  actually be x-plane's community.

[StevenM]

Ok dear shepherds, here's a talking sheep from your herd:

I already know for a long time what the "Best of.." on x-plane.org is and that it not stands for the "best" addon. I also know what X-Plane can't and can possibly do thanks to the interweb, google and youtube, etc, etc. The web is larger than x-plane.org&x-pilot.com.

I also own FSX *and* X-Plane and for me they are *different* products with different merits. They are *not* mutually exclusive and I rather not want to evangelized. I bought the MU-2 and love it but also bought RealAirs Duke and love it also. I just play with either one of them when I like it. The Duke because is such a nice well rounded package and the MU-2 because of the constant minute corrections I have to make to steer it right (= the flightmodel) and the  "Gosh, I am really flying" feeling when I look outside.

For me the org is more of a place for DIY airplane hobby-ists, some technical support and a nice big library with some real gems. It has a bit sloppy store tacked to it with some good and some mediocre products. This forum is in my view more of a gathering of very talented developers (with a grudge). I do see the underlaying tensions but to me they fall under the large category of "Interweb Community Drama" and thus solvable with a good old fashioned bilateral face to face talk. There is room enough for both the org and this place and please my dear shepherds, stop the bickering and start producing nice stuff and let there be peace, its almost Christmas after all.

Best regards,

Your not so stupid black sheep.

btw, I had a very good laugh on the sarcasm of the first few post in this topic. But don't let this forum become a place of anti-org sentiments, point your rants at something else. I personally would like to see some more WIP stuff, and more in depth development talks. If you have to evangelize anybody its new developers.

Time to walk the dog and the maybe fly the 727 i bought in Captain Sims yearly 9.99 sale. Puh!! ;D

[amerrir]

I think you mean XPFW and not XPFR, of which I have no affiliation to. Either way, sorry to hear you acknoweledge you get scared off easily.

I acknowledged what???  Cameron, the prospect of working with a team that includes you is about as appealing as catching Herpes - but far less scary.

This coming from a moderator who works alongside Nicolas at the org? Not surprised.

Thanks for your contributions to the thread, Will.

Yes I chose to join the moderating team to help make/keep the Org the great XP site it is. AFAIK, you were first banned from the Org long before Nicolas was running it, so I guess you've got a lot more issues with the Org than just Nicolas running it. Then again you're happy to work along side the very person who cheated in an effort to win the competition this thread is discussing. His non-apology speaks volumes & can be found here, under his 'girlfriends' account name elma79:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=34304

I think Six7's final post summed it all up rather well, as he often does.

Cameron, I'm happy to contribute to this thread, though I'm only really interested in what Tom has to say, and why he started this thread with a barrage of low sarcasm, aimed a harmless Freeware 'Best of' competition at the Org. You're bullshit doesn't interest me at all, and if you'd made that first post I would never have been surprised, or bothered to comment.

I already know for a long time what the "Best of.." on x-plane.org is and that it not stands for the "best" addon.

But don't let this forum become a place of anti-org sentiments, point your rants at something else.

You'd have to hope that the Org's monthly 'Best of' didn't contain the best XP add-on, otherwise there'd be little hope for the payware developers   Inevitably some months are lean, some public vote choices seem downright bizarre, but looking through the Best of the Year this month, there are some great (free) add-ons in there.

I appreciate, and agree with your sentiments, but it may be a bit late. The anti-Org rant is one of the longest threads here... I guess if you want to discuss XP you go to the Org, if you want to moan about the Org you come here.

[woweezowee]

I just pushed amerrir's Karma up one notch again. I think to keep the discussion going is fair enough. On the other hand, from my experience as editor in chief of a large music portal with a huge musicians and bands community, I want to tell you this concerning Javier's failure:

We have a lot of votings going on ("best band overall, best live act, blabla..."), all reader's or peoples choices. Of course the musicians also create fake accounts. It's just too easy to cheat, even if you have a good opt-in system. If it happens in masses, they get disqualified. But there is no point in beeing resentful for a long time. One has to realize: That is part of user's behaviour in the net. I would be surprised if there were no other cheats in the .orgs votings other than the one by Javier. It is 100% NOT beliavable. He got caught, fair enough also. But like it or not: I bet all my money that in every single best of the month there is cheating going on. It's just common sense to know that.

So, amerrir's point here is made on a false basis, while I still can see how one comes to the bad sentiments he feels.

There has to come a point for you all to come over it. Either that, or both sides have to speak out COMPLETELY open. There is too much discussed about what happens "behind the scenes". Why is that thread there, why was the other one closed, for example.

For us, who are really only pilots of x-plane, not running a site, not building scenery or planes, that's the thing both x-pilot and the org show that they rather exclude people in belief of building a community rather than include people.

It's best to keep behind the scenes discussions behind the scenes, not hint at various things every other thread without getting to the point.

Futhermore, I guess I am not the only one who is absolutely not interested in why amerrir and Cameron clash like that. Same thing: Speak out or both of you keep it to yourself or private discussions.

Anything else just fails in producing joy with our hobby.

[YYZatcboy]

Actually, since the incident in question, the moderating staff pay very close attention to those polls, and we have seen others try the same trick, but we catch them before it sways the vote.

[woweezowee]

well, yes. Only possible if the numbers of voters stays on the low end like with the best of at the *.org. Anyway, that's confirmation enough that it is of course tried not only by 1 person.

[YYZatcboy]

It actually happens very rarely. We've only had one or two other incidents.

[tkyler]

I'm only really interested in what Tom has to say, and why he started this thread with a barrage of low sarcasm, aimed a harmless Freeware 'Best of' competition at the Org.

Very well worded question Will, this response is primarily for you....and I think I might be able to shed some light...I had to think about it myself.

The initial post was, as best as I can remember, a "snap" if you will...having dealt with many other issues.  These issues run a bit deeper than can be expressed through action or words...they're ideological if you will, almost philosophical.

I tend to key in on character traits through people's actions, not necessarily first impressions mind you, but over time, you can get to know someone through their words and actions.  Some would say this prejudice...but since I reserve judgement for a time, I like to just drop the 'pre' and call it 'judice' :-P...because my judgement is then based on concrete knowledge and experiences.

So then, sometimes I will see something that looks to be initiated with a certain motivation... driven by a character trait that is offensive to me...indeed I'd argue that it's offensive to many...and sometimes I tend to over-react for the exact situation that triggers my emotions and this is what happened in this case....but I don't apologize for the emotions I feel over the character traits that set me off.  At the least, I feel I put this out there for people to comment on, and convey absolute honesty to those around me who would ask...as opposed to sly talk and evasive answers.

My other thoughts on this complex topic I will not elaborate here as it is a very long and drawn out topic not suitable to text.  I think you might understand Will that my lashing out was not so much at that specific competition, but rather a mentality that runs deeper than just the name that was given to the competition.  I sincerely apologize to all the "most popular" winners out there ;-)

If any org moderator would care to discuss more in depth why I might be behaving the way I have as of late, then please feel free to PM me if you feel you need to know more.

[amerrir]

but over time, you can get to know someone through their words and actions.  

Thanks Tom for taking the time to reply. I think we never fully know others, except through their words and action, hence the ease with which we can be surprised by them. I'll leave it at that, but thanks again.

[Cameron]

Yes I chose to join the moderating team to help make/keep the Org the great XP site it is. AFAIK, you were first banned from the Org long before Nicolas was running it, so I guess you've got a lot more issues with the Org than just Nicolas running it.

It usually helps to post about things you know about in full detail. Hearing them from others usually doesn't get the full story across. I was part of an entire group (XPFW) banned. It was not a personal thing against any action I did. The group was banned for reasons of having a forum, and the current owners of the .org (Felix really), as well as a moderator named Chez Whitey had a competition in their mind of seeing which site (org or XPFW) would get more registrations. Ultimately, the site was sold, new admins in, they evaluated the situation and found it to be petty. As such, nearly almost all bans that were similar to that of  the XPFW group were lifted.

Then again you're happy to work along side the very person who cheated in an effort to win the competition this thread is discussing.

And he does great work! The very work (CRJ-200) that so many are raving about as a sort of "revolution" to X-Plane in the MSFS world, as well as within the XP realm. I take it you don't know him on a personal basis as I, so I am sorry for that whether you want to or not. He's a very nice guy who made a bad decision on the .org forums and got reprimanded for his actions. It doesn't mean he's the devil.

I think Six7's final post summed it all up rather well, as he often does.

Not sure what his response has much to do with anything, or if you're under the assumption that I believe Javiers ban was wrongful, but I fully agree with Six7's post.

You're bullshit doesn't interest me at all, and if you'd made that first post I would never have been surprised, or bothered to comment.

Tom, got that?....note to self.

You'd have to hope that the Org's monthly 'Best of' didn't contain the best XP add-on, otherwise there'd be little hope for the payware developers   Inevitably some months are lean, some public vote choices seem downright bizarre, but looking through the Best of the Year this month, there are some great (free) add-ons in there.

Just to re-iterate, I think the interaction that the .org does with the community in terms of contests and polls are great. It's a good way to keep people involved! I just don't agree with the name. That's it. /moan (vote to come at a later date)

I appreciate, and agree with your sentiments, but it may be a bit late. The anti-Org rant is one of the longest threads here... I guess if you want to discuss XP you go to the Org, if you want to moan about the Org you come here.

If you're not an org moderator, anyhow. None the less, you're still welcome here just the same. You can "moan" about this place all you want Will, but take note that most of those anti-org topics aren't full of just one persons agreed sentiments, and it's not just this forum that contains them. Without doing hard investigating to dig up the many I've seen elsewhere, here's one for you now: http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=267918.

All the above said, I think the .org is a great place. Always have. I've been around it since the day it was opened by K. Nader. It's been great to watch the community increase over time, and I've done my part in the past to contribute not only to the community, but monetarily to the .org through donations. It's existence is good, the way it's ran...not so much. In time it will all pan out.

Come back to "moan" again soon, Will.