CRJ at the ORG Store!?!

[MaidenFan]

I'm shocked!

[simbabeat]

Same here!  What happened?!?!?!?!?!?!

[woweezowee]

Love and Peace always prevail and clever developers try to sell as much as possible at different points of sale if it fits their strategy in order to stay in business. Something like that happened

[tkyler]

I'm shocked!

Same here!  What happened?!?!?!?!?!?!

A bit of  "contract ignoring" I suspect.  At first look, I am HIGHLY disappointed in this behavior.   Facilities exist for vendors to sell their work at other stores, XA acknowledges that as woweezoee says... but there are terms, methods and a timeline to do so...outlined in a contract signed by all parties..... and this appears to be a "behind the back" move that ignored the terms of said signed contract.  It sets a very precarious and negative precedent for marketing behavior within the x-plane community.   I'll reserve final judgment till more facts are in though.

[Breyne]

Now, this is a bit of a twists

[amerrir]

Hopefully it's a sign of old wounds healing & less division in the community as a whole. Javier has been back at the Org for a few months, and of course Philipp has always had a good relationship with the Org. Love & Peace indeed. 

[JB_XUSA]

nahhh probably not. It probably just came down to XA wasn't selling enough for Javier and Philip and others to make much needed funds to fund other great projects. To XA pilots you wander why it doesn't sell. Well with most pilots that are neither beginning in x-plane or just don't keep up enough with whats going on in the community, much of XA's wonderful software, scenery and Planes don't get the due attention from the main community. Like it or not the org is the place of X-Plane. Unfortunately the upper staff does things in our eyes that aren't right. But at the end of the day "people got to get paid." I think the obvious bickering is jealousy on both parts. XA wishes they could have the number of planes that get sold on X-plane org and the org wish they could have the complexity of XA's planes. Put them together and you have a monster. Don't think that thats going to happen but Javier and philip I guess can sell where they want too plus Javier can't just completely bash the org because he's doing almost all the planes for X-Plane 10. I see FlyJSim's Q400 up on there too. OBviously he saw what the others saw.

The shame is XA doesn't have anything from the org. The org is starting to monopolize everything. You have the best of the best now at the org and it seems as everything else "……. ahhhh we'll let XA sell that. " Kind of one sided. Whatever has been said and contracted obviously is paying out great dividends for both parties or at least hopefully will in their eyes.

JB

[tkyler]

Hopefully it's a sign of old wounds healing & less division in the community as a whole

We have always agreed that people will want to sell in  other locations; however, proper competition dictates XA offer services that will encourage people to do business  here.  Selling at the org is not the issue....breaching the agreement and what it says about character...or lack of it rather, is the issue.  I've spoken with Cam about this and we both agreed....all they  had to do was abide by the terms properly, then they're welcome to sell wherever they like...but they didn't!    Breaking an agreement is not my idea of wound healing Will.  If Nicolas was competent, he would have inquired of the CRJ team about existing agreements.  So either he's incompetent or deviant...hardly a recipe for healing.

[amerrir]

Tom, I was talking about old wounds re- Javier/Nicolas.

If an agreement has been broken, it's between the developers & XA, not the Org/Nicolas. And that would speak volumes about the agreements XA have & the relationships they have with developers.

How much do you know about the discussions between the developers & Nicolas? If you don't know everything, how can you judge who is incompetent or deviant?

[Airbus]

Money talks. It alters how people think day by day.

[tkyler]

It's that simple.  There is no healing...no "coming together", only money.

[Cameron]

Ahhhh...the breeze is coming and the overcast skies are about to be cleared...

First off, to end speculation:

X-Aviation and the developers involved with this product came to an agreement PRIOR to the product ever going on sale to have this plane on the org. So, just to get that out there, this has nothing to do with sales figures on XA being dismal or not to satisfaction. In fact, I think any distributor who takes this product on will be hard pressed to reach the numbers X-Aviation has or will have as time goes on, so lets put that rumor to rest.

Regardless of how our contract was spelled out or how it was dealt with up to this point, I'll say it again: this product was always intended for the org and another unsaid outlet at about this stage in the game. I knew of it.

Okay, now that the "fun" stuff is out of the way, on to my usual response technique:

nahhh probably not. It probably just came down to XA wasn't selling enough for Javier and Philip and others to make much needed funds to fund other great projects.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Sales have been astounding (thanks all who purchased or who will purchase!). As stated above, this was planned.

XA wishes they could have the number of planes that get sold on X-plane org and the org wish they could have the complexity of XA's planes. Put them together and you have a monster.

XA doesn't wish anything, and this goes to show your misinformation or bad assumptions on our position in the payware market as a distributor. Given talks with plenty of developers, we tend to be equal as well as higher in sales volume than that of other products on the org and other venues.

The shame is XA doesn't have anything from the org. The org is starting to monopolize everything. You have the best of the best now at the org and it seems as everything else "……. ahhhh we'll let XA sell that. " Kind of one sided.

There have been numerous developers who have requested to sell on XA of which are currently on the org. The products pitched to X-Aviation did not meet the standard we set out for, and as such were not accepted into the catalog. This is not to say a product is "crap." It is to say that we continue to seek the best and continue an upward trend with a good standard. It's really as simple as that.

Hopefully it's a sign of old wounds healing & less division in the community as a whole.

For the sake of the community I hope so as well!

If an agreement has been broken, it's between the developers & XA, not the Org/Nicolas. And that would speak volumes about the agreements XA have & the relationships they have with developers.

It actually speaks very little, Will. You do not know to which degree anything was broken, or what implications it entails. As stated, this product was certainly planned and slated to end up where it has and other places with agreement by myself prior to the product ever going on sale. Your assumptions are jumping too far.

Overall, there is one mission here, folks: To bring the quality bar of X-Plane and the perception it has to the outside MSFS users to a new level. I think we're accomplishing that. Together.

[amerrir]

It actually speaks very little, Will. You do not know to which degree anything was broken, or what implications it entails. As stated, this product was certainly planned and slated to end up where it has and other places with agreement by myself prior to the product ever going on sale. Your assumptions are jumping too far.

Thanks for the clarity Cameron. I'm sure you'll appreciate that my response was to Tom's comment: "I've spoken with Cam about this and we both agreed....all they  had to do was abide by the terms properly, then they're welcome to sell wherever they like...but they didn't!"

I obviously have no idea about the degree to which any XA/developer agreements have or have not been broken, other than Tom's reference to speaking to you, and that 'they' didn't abide by the terms properly.  I'm really glad to hear that Javier, Philipp & Nicolas have all acted in an entirely proper & professional manner.

Thanks again for making that clear to everyone. I look forward to seeing more high quality add-ons in both stores. 

[tkyler]

I'm really glad to hear that Javier, Philipp & Nicolas have all acted in an entirely proper & professional manner.

Your conclusion is unfounded in any of Cam's text. I'm not sure where you pulled it from...but let me clarify so your statement above doesn't go misunderstood.

I know the circumstances of XA agreements.....I sell at XA.   I know the circumstances of the CRJ's selling on the org.   Cameron has acted in a professional manner by choosing to let the issue go and move on for the sake of the community.  Javier and Philipp STILL violated the agreement and Nicolas is supporting it.  The only professionalism here is by XA...as usual.  That's the clarification.

[eaglewing7]

...Javier and Philipp STILL violated the agreement and Nicolas is supporting it.  The only professionalism here is by XA...as usual.  That's the clarification...

Tom you need to back up a bit.  Cameron clearly states that:

...X-Aviation and the developers involved with this product came to an agreement PRIOR to the product ever going on sale to have this plane on the org...

So who is right here then?  The administrator of the store who should likely know the nature of the agreement or yourself?

And finally:

...Regardless of how our contract was spelled out or how it was dealt with up to this point, I'll say it again: this product was always intended for the org and another unsaid outlet at about this stage in the game. I knew of it...

Sounds all "hunky dory" to me.  No harm, no foul.  Javier, Phillip, Nicolas, and Cameron are all in the clear on this one. 

By the way, I'm happy that this strife appears to be healing between XA and the .org.  Good on Cameron for being open to a solution, and good on Nicolas for calming down enough to understand that this is better for the entire community.

[Goran_M]

Speculation and assumptions made by many people.

The only professional here is Cameron who clarified it all.  And, most likely (read definitely) the only person qualified to do so.

Let's discuss professionalism for a minute.

Javier has decided to sell at the org.  For his own reasons.  He talks to Cameron and Cameron wishes him the best of luck and releases him from exclusivity, (as he also has done with REX) even though some terms, apparently, were broken.  

Let's turn it around for a minute.  Khamsin and Arno were making posts and discussing the T-28 at the org forums.  Then they decide to sell through XA, again, for their own reasons.  Nicolas basically tells them to *&$% OFF and subsequently bans them from the org and takes down the aircraft carrier that was selling over there.

Hmmmmm, who is the professional?  Tough call.

[tkyler]

Branden, you won't win this one.  You stand on the sidewalk as a bystander licking an ice-cream cone, watching events and speculating...which is OK, as long as you keep licking instead of talking.

...X-Aviation and the developers involved with this product came to an agreement PRIOR to the product ever going on sale to have this plane on the org...

right...but under specific conditions spelled out in the agreement!   There are terms and conditions I know about because I have the contract, I sell at XA.  Have you read XA's vendor contract?  I doubt it....you know why?  Because you're on the sidewalk and not in the conference room.  If you have read the contract, I'll post a public apology here and now.

The administrator of the store who should likely know the nature of the agreement or yourself?  

We all have the same agreement, I know very well the nature of the agreement....maybe...as the very first vendor on XA, I helped write it eh?  You don't know this though because you're on the sidewalk and not in the conference room..remember?

Javier, Phillip, Nicolas, and Cameron are all in the clear on this one.  

I'm sure everybody looks shiny and clean behind the rose colored, plate-glass windows of the conference room.....you keep licking that ice cream and all will be well for you.

EDIT:  and +++1 to Goran's point on the T-28.   They went somewhere else and were cut off at the org.  Nicolas clean?  What?  you afraid of getting banned at the org for agreeing with us?

[eaglewing7]

Branden, you won't win this one.  You stand on the sidewalk as a bystander licking an ice-cream cone, watching events and speculating...which is OK, as long as you keep licking instead of talking.

...X-Aviation and the developers involved with this product came to an agreement PRIOR to the product ever going on sale to have this plane on the org...

right...but under specific conditions spelled out in the agreement!   There are terms and conditions I know about because I have the contract, I sell at XA.  Have you read XA's vendor contract?  I doubt it....you know why?  Because you're on the sidewalk and not in the conference room.  If you have read the contract, I'll post a public apology here and now.

The administrator of the store who should likely know the nature of the agreement or yourself?  

We all have the same agreement, I know very well the nature of the agreement....maybe...as the very first vendor on XA, I helped write it eh?  You don't know this though because you're on the sidewalk and not in the conference room..remember?

Javier, Phillip, Nicolas, and Cameron are all in the clear on this one.  

I'm sure everybody looks shiny and clean behind the rose colored, plate-glass windows of the conference room.....you keep licking that ice cream and all will be well for you.

...Nicolas clean?  What?  you afraid of getting banned at the org for agreeing with us?

As a matter of fact I read the TOS and various terms listed on most sites I join and purchase from.  I do not recall reading any sort of vendor terms, likely because there not usually made public for the average users to read...

I can tell your a little angry about the so called violation of the contract, but you do realize that contracts are routinely modified to suit the needs of buyers and sellers.  Could it not be possible that the base contract, that you clearly stated you helped write, may have been modified for the various other sellers and developers on XA?

I'll now throw in one corroborating quote just for the hell of it...

...Speculation and assumptions made by many people.

The only professional here is Cameron who clarified it all.  And, most likely (read definitely) the only person qualified to do so...

I'd tend to agree with the statements made there, and quite frankly I'd like to hear Cameron's opinion on the matter.  If I have been incorrect on my assumptions that nothing incorrect has happened, I await a correction from Cameron.  Until I see something from him, I will ignore the speculation of wrongdoing on the part of Javier and Phillip.

I will also take offence at your patronizing and derogatory tone.  You quite obviously disagree with most things I say, just disagree, there is no need for name calling and defamation of character.

[amerrir]

I've just re-read Cameron's post, & he sounds happy enough about the situation - and that it was always planned to end up this way. I'm glad about that - I'd prefer to read that than hear he'd been stabbed in the back by his business partners - so it's all cool, no?

I'm sitting here in London, been listening to Police & Fire sirens all evening - do you guys get news from England at all??? Riot's all over the place, buildings burning, shops being looted... Go on guys. Keep up the anger, keep up the hate....  :

[tkyler]

You quite obviously disagree with most things I say, just disagree, there is no need for name calling and defamation of character.

You're absolutely right on this point, I apologize to you.

The thing is...we at XA are in a major uphill battle.  We had only one goal in the beginning...to improve the X-plane experience...in service, in products, presentation and marketing, etc.  I've a LONG list of people that said, "I got xplane because of the MU2"....that's what we were after when we started.  We've met resistance since day one form the org in ways you can't imagine.  Our own community, cutting us off because we didn't sell at the org.

We've had to fight and it's had it's "uncomfortable moments".  Because the org is so big...everybody just thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong.  We, on the other hand, have seen behavior that just about anybody would agree is inappropriate by human standards, yet it goes "ignored"...or "unaddressed"...people "turn the other way" and don't address it for reasons I can't fathom....for example, the T-28 incident...what's your take on that?  It's a part of the xplane community yet it and it's authors get banned from THE site for xplane information.  Check this:

This is what we're angry about.  This guy controls OUR community for his gain...it should make you unhappy and you should say so.

WILL:   What you're listening to, the kinds of things you're talking about....all begin with someone doing a malicious selfish act at the expense of another.  We are not keeping up the hate, we are fighting against it.  I suppose the bobbies responding to the looters are all perpetuating hate for being so aggressive against the looters eh?  Can't they just ask the looters to please stop looting?  That doesn't work...to subdue the bad guy, you gotta pull out the billy club...and if it makes you queasy, you turn away.

[Goran_M]

I'm sitting here in London, been listening to Police & Fire sirens all evening - do you guys get news from England at all??? Riot's all over the place, buildings burning, shops being looted... Go on guys. Keep up the anger, keep up the hate....  :

I've had cancer, Will.  Leukaemia to be exact.  Given a 30% chance to be in remission.  10% chance to survive  past the 5 year mark.  3% chance of having a child.  Got through it all and have a beautiful 5 year old daughter who lights up my day every single morning.

I don't expect the world to stop for me.

Maybe Nicolas can stop the petty bickering.

Shall I put up the post what he said about the CRJ and Cameron when it was announced the CRJ was on indefinite hold?

Maybe not.  It's already up in another thread.

[Cameron]

And with all of that, this topic has run its necessary course.

My official response to this is here: http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php?topic=2861.msg26878#msg26878

Branden and Will,

Tom has valid statements as far as I can tell. I never said otherwise, and if you read my post carefully you'd get that.

Here's to X-Plane's continued success!