Possible Errors in the CL650

[richjb]

Greetings,

I absolutely love flying the CL650!  It's the add-on that I've been waiting for.  

I have noticed a few items that may(?) be wrong or incorrect.  I preface this with the fact I do not fly the CL650, but I do fly the CL300/350 with the Proline 21 Advanced. Some things I expect to be different as the 300/350 doesn't have autothrottles.  However, some things are common across the Collins line.  With that in mind, here goes:

 

1.  With VFLC engaged and with VNAV PLAN SPD ACTIVE, the FMA VFLC Speed shows in Cyan (Blue).  The FMA "VFLC" should be magenta.  Anytime the FMC is generating the guidance cue, the label is magenta.  Anytime the guidance is through manual control from the from flight guidance panel, the label is cyan.   So with VFLC and VNAV PLAN SPD ACTIVE, VFLC should be magenta.  If you move the SPEED knob, then you've taken manual control of the speed in VFLC and FMA annunciation changes to cyan.  VNAV PLAN SPD is no longer active.  You have re-activate it to get it go back into CDU and make VNAV PLAN SPD active again.  BTW....in the CL300/350, we're not allowed to use VFLC when it is commanding a Mach speed (e.g., 0.78M).  Bombardier found out that if the FMS suddenly drops the planned climb speed in Mach, it reverts to the minimum programable Mach speed of 0.50M.  Things could get a little exciting if that happens climbing in VFLC and tracking 0.50M.

2.  TEMP COMP is ON by default.  TEMP COMP should be OFF by default in the FMS.  That's Collins standard.  In fact, TEMP COMP is not allowed in Collins FMSs that are not to the Fusion FMS level because TEMP COMP can cause dropping of the turn direction on a VA or CA leg in the FMS.  The famous 10,000 approach deletion issue from several years ago. 

3. Climbing in VNAV and approaching a waypoint with an "at or below" constraint, the altitude alert sounds when 1000' below this constraint.  The altitude alert tone sounds only in relation to the altitude set in the pre-selector window (cyan) using the ALT knob.  It never sounds due approach or deviating from a VNAV altitude constraint (magenta).  

4. I have an older FCOM for the CL605 (not CL650), and it says that the that the A/SKID IN TEST advisory message goes out after 6 seconds.  Was this a change in the CL650?

5. LAMP TEST switch … Select 1 does not test lights only on BATT power. Select 2 does test all lights.  It's a bit difficult to test using position 2 and then to look up to check the overhead.  Some add-ons have a feature that if you select a switch with the mouse by holding the mouse button down, then slide off the switch, the switch stays in the selected position (when a momentary push or movement is what the switch supports) so that you can then move the mouse cursor to active another switch.  Felis uses this with the B747 INS key entry when multiple key entries are required (e.g., pushing down the "9" and "7" simultaneously).  Just a thought...

6. yesterday, I was having issues getting the checklist to advance and to speak yesterday.  I could advance using the CCP's push button, but nothing else.  No virtual co-pilot.  Also, the joystick binding for checklist advance did not work.  Could be one-time glitch...

7.  I have a Go-Flight MCP Pro.  Using the GoFlight Interface Tool XP, I was able to bind all of the buttons and knobs on this device using the datarefs provided by HotStart.  FIRST TIME EVER for an add-on!  THANK YOU!!!  However, the dataref for CL650/FCP/ap_eng was not working to cycle the AP engage switch.  I was able to set a keyboard key to active this switch on the FCP, but I can't get it to control the FCP AP switch through GoFlight using the CL650/FCP/ap_eng.  Is there something wrong with this dataref or binding?  Am I using the correct one to active the AP switch on the FCP. 

It's a lousy weather day on the east coast of the US.  Guess where I'm going to fly next! :-) 

Thanks again for making a wonderful X-Plane Addon!

Rich Boll

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by richjb

[richjb]

Regarding #6, the checklist worked flawlessly yesterday.  Could have been a one time glitch. 

Rich 

[ois650]

Hello Rich, 

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. 

1.  With VFLC engaged and with VNAV PLAN SPD ACTIVE, the FMA VFLC Speed shows in Cyan (Blue).  The FMA "VFLC" should be magenta.  Anytime the FMC is generating the guidance cue, the label is magenta.  Anytime the guidance is through manual control from the from flight guidance panel, the label is cyan.   So with VFLC and VNAV PLAN SPD ACTIVE, VFLC should be magenta.  If you move the SPEED knob, then you've taken manual control of the speed in VFLC and FMA annunciation changes to cyan.  VNAV PLAN SPD is no longer active.  You have re-activate it to get it go back into CDU and make VNAV PLAN SPD active again.  BTW....in the CL300/350, we're not allowed to use VFLC when it is commanding a Mach speed (e.g., 0.78M).  Bombardier found out that if the FMS suddenly drops the planned climb speed in Mach, it reverts to the minimum programable Mach speed of 0.50M.  Things could get a little exciting if that happens climbing in VFLC and tracking 0.50M.

1. FMC commanded speeds of course should be magenta, and are (as far as I can recall). I'll do a quick flight soon to verify. If not, I'll file as a bug.  Tested in VFLC, verified and filed (2538)  Fixed in BETA build only

2.  TEMP COMP is ON by default.  TEMP COMP should be OFF by default in the FMS.  That's Collins standard.  In fact, TEMP COMP is not allowed in Collins FMSs that are not to the Fusion FMS level because TEMP COMP can cause dropping of the turn direction on a VA or CA leg in the FMS.  The famous 10,000 approach deletion issue from several years ago. 

2. On initial release TEMP COMP was on by default, it should be off now. Again, I'll verify this.  Temp comp is off by default. Thanks for the heads up re: not allowed unless Fusion.

3. Climbing in VNAV and approaching a waypoint with an "at or below" constraint, the altitude alert sounds when 1000' below this constraint.  The altitude alert tone sounds only in relation to the altitude set in the pre-selector window (cyan) using the ALT knob.  It never sounds due approach or deviating from a VNAV altitude constraint (magenta).  

3. Will verify and file if necessary. Could not replicate, will keep an eye on this one though. 

4. I have an older FCOM for the CL605 (not CL650), and it says that the that the A/SKID IN TEST advisory message goes out after 6 seconds.  Was this a change in the CL650?

4. I don't believe it was changed for the 650, will check this out.   Verified and filed (2537) Fixed in BETA build only

5. LAMP TEST switch … Select 1 does not test lights only on BATT power. Select 2 does test all lights.  It's a bit difficult to test using position 2 and then to look up to check the overhead.  Some add-ons have a feature that if you select a switch with the mouse by holding the mouse button down, then slide off the switch, the switch stays in the selected position (when a momentary push or movement is what the switch supports) so that you can then move the mouse cursor to active another switch.  Felis uses this with the B747 INS key entry when multiple key entries are required (e.g., pushing down the "9" and "7" simultaneously).  Just a thought...

5. FCOM states LAMP TEST 1 & 2 behave identically with the only limitation being it can't be used when ATS is engaged. Re: difficulty holding down and checking lights, I will raise this with the developer and see if something can be figured out.  Tested, can't find issue.

6. yesterday, I was having issues getting the checklist to advance and to speak yesterday.  I could advance using the CCP's push button, but nothing else.  No virtual co-pilot.  Also, the joystick binding for checklist advance did not work.  Could be one-time glitch...

6. Haven't experienced that behaviour before, glad it's worked for you since. 

7.  I have a Go-Flight MCP Pro.  Using the GoFlight Interface Tool XP, I was able to bind all of the buttons and knobs on this device using the datarefs provided by HotStart.  FIRST TIME EVER for an add-on!  THANK YOU!!!  However, the dataref for CL650/FCP/ap_eng was not working to cycle the AP engage switch.  I was able to set a keyboard key to active this switch on the FCP, but I can't get it to control the FCP AP switch through GoFlight using the CL650/FCP/ap_eng.  Is there something wrong with this dataref or binding?  Am I using the correct one to active the AP switch on the FCP. 

7. Will get the developer to check that out for you. 

 

Best regards, 

Edited February 3, 2022 by oisin650

[Pils]

53 minutes ago, oisin650 said:

2. On initial release TEMP COMP was on by default, it should be off now. Again, I'll verify this. 

This only applies to new airframes.

53 minutes ago, oisin650 said:

CL650/FCP/ap_eng

The command works as expected with my hardware. Might need to be held down for a moment or two? I forget. Manipulating the buttons via dataref… that may need more fanagling. The corresponding float datarefs are for button animation, the integer datarefs are for the logical position of the buttons. Maybe that helps? What exactly is OP doing to actuate the FCU buttons?

[JRBarrett]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:48 AM, richjb said:

2.  TEMP COMP is ON by default.  TEMP COMP should be OFF by default in the FMS.  That's Collins standard.  In fact, TEMP COMP is not allowed in Collins FMSs that are not to the Fusion FMS level because TEMP COMP can cause dropping of the turn direction on a VA or CA leg in the FMS.  The famous 10,000 approach deletion issue from several years ago. 

This was the subject of an FAA Airworthiness Directive (2020-10-05), affecting all Rockwell-Collins Proline 4 and Proline 21 systems installed in any make/model of aircraft.

The corrective action is to change the CSU strapping to disable temperature compensation completely. Once this has been done, there will not even be a temperature compensation option in the FMS menus.

AFAIK, EASA did not issue a matching AD for Europe, so this only affects US-registered aircraft. Of course in the sim, we are not bound by FAA regulations!

[richjb]

21 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

This was the subject of an FAA Airworthiness Directive (2020-10-05), affecting all Rockwell-Collins Proline 4 and Proline 21 systems installed in any make/model of aircraft.

The corrective action is to change the CSU strapping to disable temperature compensation completely. Once this has been done, there will not even be a temperature compensation option in the FMS menus.

AFAIK, EASA did not issue a matching AD for Europe, so this only affects US-registered aircraft. Of course in the sim, we are not bound by FAA regulations!

That is correct only for the non-Fusion aircraft.  The version that you're modeling should TEMP COMP enabled and is not subject to the AD.  Neither is my CL300/CL350 with the Proline 21 Advanced FMS SB installed.  I remember having live with the older CL300 without the TEMP COMP, and with the 10,000 approaches being removed!  <argh>! 

[richjb]

So I did another flight today, KLAS to KLAX. Fairly light weight.  The SID was the RADYR2, runway 19R, BLAQQ transition.  There's an at or below 7000 at DEREW.  I only 6000 lbs. of fuel, and climb performance was great.  I was going to get to 7000' before DEREW, and VNAV correctly transitioned to VALTV.  However, I also got the altitude alert horn at 6000' or so.  The ASEL selector was set to the SID top altitude of FL190. 

I keep getting blown away by the level of detail in HotStart CL650.  I just passed this along to a good friend of mine who was Collins's lead instructor training pilot at their Wichita facility.  He trained me in the PL4 on the DA2000 and on the PL21 on the CL300/350.  He's "retired" now, again flying part time.  I told him to take a look at this product.  I can't say enough good things about it.  I was flying the PMDG stuff because I thought it was the best.  No more.  MSFS what???  I'll be looking forward to XP12! :-) 

Rich Boll

 

[sunake]

Hi Rich, quick question for you. I tried doing a single engine taxi after landing, and I read that they recommend taxiing with the number 2 engine because of hydraulics, and also to turn off the LEFT fuel boost pump with the left engine off. I find that this produces an inop on the RIGHT boost pump as well, do you think this is correct? 

[richjb]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:22 PM, sunake said:

Hi Rich, quick question for you. I tried doing a single engine taxi after landing, and I read that they recommend taxiing with the number 2 engine because of hydraulics, and also to turn off the LEFT fuel boost pump with the left engine off. I find that this produces an inop on the RIGHT boost pump as well, do you think this is correct? 

Hi Sunlake,

I do not actually fly the CL650, and its systems are completely different from the systems on the CL300/350. I would not be in position to say whether the behavior you describe is correct.

Sorry,

Rich