FSX AND PMDG versus the best of Xplane

[dpny]

You say this based on your programming experience? Your thousands of hours in the cockpit of airliners? Your experience as an aeronautical engineer? Your intimate knowledge of the flight characteristics of the planes in question? Or are these just PMDG's words coming out of your mouth?

You're offering no proof other than, "I say so!" You'll have to excuse us if we think you look ridiculous.

If in doubt go visit the PMDG forums on AVSIM.  You will be pleased to know that PMDG does have vast experience in developing airliner simulations in addition to numerous NGX pilots on the beta team (with tens of thousands of NGX hours in total).  The PMDG NGX is licensed by Boeing and in addition PMDG have access to Boeing NGX engineers.   

So that's a "yes" to parroting PMDG's marketing material.

[Cameron]

So that's a "yes" to parroting PMDG's marketing material.

Precisely.

[Dhruv]

Which pilots are on the beta team?  I don't remember seeing any and I have been following that thread for over a year.

Ok to be fair, I strongly doubt that every PMDG beta tester is going out of his way in the forum thread to make it known if he/she is an in-type pilot. I personally know two 737NG type-rated pilots who are indeed on the testing team as technical advisors, so I wouldn't come down too hard on MatthewS there. Furthermore, VNAV logic that is specifically tailored to the aircraft of its intended use will in most cases trump a one-size-fits-all solution such as UFMC. There's a pretty strong reason you don't see every add-on developer looking to license one codebase for their FMC logic. Each aircraft is going to have its own specific intricacies to the programming that require some of the formulae to be re-worked. Lastly, I've had the opportunity to take the PMDG NGX in its current state through its paces, and I can say without too much exaggeration that it will definitely be a major step forward in airliner simulation fidelity.

It's unfortunate that many X-Plane users do indeed fall under the mentality that MSFS is inherently inferior to X-Plane because the truth is that wonderful things are possible with both sims as the basis for add-ons. The reality of the current situation is that the bulk of the development resources have gone into the MSFS side of things simply due to marketshare. The next year or two have the potential to be VERY fruitful in the X-Plane market and should finally turn that critical mass number of heads in the MSFS add-on buying community towards accepting X-Plane as a legitimate contender for their time and money. The best is yet to come, folks!

Lastly, Morten, not to be outdone, we can show off our pedestal from the sim now too

[dpny]

It's unfortunate that many X-Plane users do indeed fall under the mentality that MSFS is inherently inferior to X-Plane. . .

To be fair, I don't think that's the issue here. The argument presented was PMDG is a priori superior to X-Plane, and always will be. Clearly that is, prima facie, ridiculous.

Personally I have no opinions about MSFS aside from financial/strategic ones; namely that MS killed FS to increase their monetization, and this bodes very ill for PMDG and the FS add on community. But that's another thread.

[Kesomir]

I fly both FSX and X-plane regularly. I own a shedload of after market addons - most of x-aviation store, PMDG, OrbX (all FTX + a large nuber of airfields etc).

PMDG do a great job, however in many respects you are also limited by the sim you are using. Example: the NGX has night lighting which emulates that found in x-plane, but because of the round peg, square hole issue, the lights move up and down in discrete steps which is nowhere near as good as x-plane's in-built lighting - amazing for FSX however.

PMDG aircraft simulations are fantastic, and they fly believably when inside a narrow envelope. However, I've had occasions when the MD-11 has flown in a way that was to me, a joke and this is about the best of the best in FSX. Good payware in X-plne has a continually fluid flight model, so out of the box is better. The CRJ-200 Flight model is far superior to anything I have flown in FS, PMDG et al included.

Nothing PMDG do in FSX is not possible in x-plane - it's all external coding after all - we're not talking about a simulator restriction and indeed the base x-plane is more advanced than the base FSX.

I also think that it's easier to make addons for x-plane than it is for FSX (*from objective viewing only, based on speed to market).

It comes down to whether someone will make it or not. That's the bottom line. Currently, X-plane doesn't have a PMDG systems simulation level product (or even A2A), but it's been catching up fast for a long time, so I shall wait and see.

[MatthewS]

It's unfortunate that many X-Plane users do indeed fall under the mentality that MSFS is inherently inferior to X-Plane. . .

To be fair, I don't think that's the issue here. The argument presented was PMDG is a priori superior to X-Plane, and always will be. Clearly that is, prima facie, ridiculous.

Personally I have no opinions about MSFS aside from financial/strategic ones; namely that MS killed FS to increase their monetization, and this bodes very ill for PMDG and the FS add on community. But that's another thread.

Yes IMHO PMDG products are superior (in systems simulation) to currently available XP products.  Will that change, well lets hope so, because it means better products for XP.

The real shame for XP is that XP10 is delayed probably till the end of the year.  Flight maybe available by then, so I think the likelihood of PMDG or many other FSX developers jumping ship to support XPlane is now quite slim.

In anycase Flight seems to be based upon FSX so it should be far easier for developers such as PMDG to make products for Flight than for XPlane.

The best thing for XP was the canning of ACES.  The worst thing was the announcement of Flight.   I think XP10 is destined now to remain a relatively small player (compared to FSX/Flight) in the Flight sim market.

[dpny]

The best thing for XP was the canning of ACES.  The worst thing was the announcement of Flight.   I think XP10 is destined now to remain a relatively small player (compared to FSX/Flight) in the Flight sim market.

See my comments elsewhere about Flight: I think it's going to be aimed primarily at X-Box/online, and MS will control all add ons. It doesn't look good for PMDG.

[Morten XPFW]

Just a note on the VNAV, predictions etc.

Any airline pilot will tell you that the REAL predictions for e.g. TOC/TOD aren't very reliable.

The reasons are;

1.  Wind, which will always vary locally - often a lot - in both direction and speed.

2.  Engine performance which thrust will vary depending on how worn it is up to maybe 2-3%.

3.  Weight, the estimated weight in real is never accurate to the real TO weight.

So missing TOC with a couple/few miles is completely normal.

The discussion of which method is more accurate is therefore somewhat academic.

Offcourse in XP we can have 0/steady wind from TO up to cruise, brand new engines all the time,

exactly know the TOW etc, but this never happens in real.

As for "certified by Boeing" and similar marketing gimmicks, that offcourse doesn't mean anything.

The FMC software it is strongly sensitive stuff proprietary to Honneywell or whoever did it.

Boeing does NOT give out any information that is classified to 3rd party, nor do their engineers if they

wish to keep their job.  So if one needs good performance information Boeing is the LAST place to go.

We offcourse have the information we need, and we can prove our aircraft is dead on in the ENTIRE envelope.

(we use plugins to get the performance we want)

As for the IXEG FMC, predictions, VNAV etc, don't worry about it, we have "top men" on the job, and it's almost done ;D

[MatthewS]

See my comments elsewhere about Flight: I think it's going to be aimed primarily at X-Box/online, and MS will control all add ons. It doesn't look good for PMDG.

You should go read the Flight site and/or the Flight forums over at AVSIM.  Flight is for PC and not X-Box. 

I wouldn't worry about PMDG, they will continue to make some of the best simulation products available.  IMHO I very much doubt any XP developer will have the same level of success as PMDG.

[Oliver]

See my comments elsewhere about Flight: I think it's going to be aimed primarily at X-Box/online, and MS will control all add ons. It doesn't look good for PMDG.

You should go read the Flight site and/or the Flight forums over at AVSIM.  Flight is for PC and not X-Box. 

I wouldn't worry about PMDG, they will continue to make some of the best simulation products available.  IMHO I very much doubt any XP developer will have the same level of success as PMDG.

Here's a word of advice: If you're going to put down XP devs and tell them they work won't be able to surpass those of certain

FS addons, you might as well pack your stuff and head on over to an FSX related flight sim forum. Goran and his Saab, and

Javier and his CRJ have both surpassed some of the "best" addons for FSX. If you think PMDG is the absolute best and you're

going to undeniably support them no matter what anyone tells you your best bet is to go and register on their forums...  :

[MatthewS]

Here's a word of advice: If you're going to put down XP devs and tell them they work won't be able to surpass those of certain

FS addons, you might as well pack your stuff and head on over to an FSX related flight sim forum. Goran and his Saab, and

Javier and his CRJ have both surpassed some of the "best" addons for FSX. If you think PMDG is the absolute best and you're

going to undeniably support them no matter what anyone tells you your best bet is to go and register on their forums...  :

You should read what I say more carefully.

[dpny]

See my comments elsewhere about Flight: I think it's going to be aimed primarily at X-Box/online, and MS will control all add ons. It doesn't look good for PMDG.

You should go read the Flight site and/or the Flight forums over at AVSIM.  Flight is for PC and not X-Box. 

There's no reason for MS to can FS and start an entirely new project unless they intend to change the way they're monetizing the product. I expect Flight will be much more game-like, and all add-ons will have to go through MS.

[MatthewS]

There's no reason for MS to can FS and start an entirely new project unless they intend to change the way they're monetizing the product. I expect Flight will be much more game-like, and all add-ons will have to go through MS.

This has been discussed much on the various Flight forums.  

The common view I believe is that:-

1) Flight is a enhanced version of FSX (thus not 'arcade').  The 'not arcade' aspect has also been confirmed by the official Flight website.

2) The Flight 'store' means exposure to a vast market for Flight developers, with vendors paying Microsoft a commission on each store sale (similar to how Steam works).

3) Vendors do not need to go through the store. And thus the freeware 'market' and 3rd party stores will continue to operate.

Additionally from what I've read PMDG and vendors such as ORBX are already under NDA with regard to Flight, so presumably they are already developing (or considering) products for Flight.

Since Flight is closely related to FSX it should be relatively easy for vendors to 'port' products to Flight.  I think you'll see Flight released with the Flight marketplace already populated with some big name FSX vendors.

[Simmo W]

Gee, this thread's got legs eh!Good to see friendly banter..

I've seen the Flight screens and vids, they look promising, but worryingly FSX Like. At least simming is looking up rather than nil development.

Just saw this vid of the 737NGX, nice lighting. A yr ago I would have been gobsmacked, now it's 'oh, that looks almost as good as xplane'!

[dpny]

There's no reason for MS to can FS and start an entirely new project unless they intend to change the way they're monetizing the product. I expect Flight will be much more game-like, and all add-ons will have to go through MS.

This has been discussed much on the various Flight forums.  

The common view I believe is that:-

1) Flight is a enhanced version of FSX (thus not 'arcade').  The 'not arcade' aspect has also been confirmed by the official Flight website.

2) The Flight 'store' means exposure to a vast market for Flight developers, with vendors paying Microsoft a commission on each store sale (similar to how Steam works).

3) Vendors do not need to go through the store. And thus the freeware 'market' and 3rd party stores will continue to operate.

Additionally from what I've read PMDG and vendors such as ORBX are already under NDA with regard to Flight, so presumably they are already developing (or considering) products for Flight.

Since Flight is closely related to FSX it should be relatively easy for vendors to 'port' products to Flight.  I think you'll see Flight released with the Flight marketplace already populated with some big name FSX vendors.

As with all things MS, wait and see.

[MaidenFan]

And why can't XP dev's do better than that......................?

[Simmo W]

Yes, WAIT.. At least by then, you'll have integrated Skype and be able to play offline on your hip Windows Phone 8.2.22 while updating your Zune player via Kinect enabled hand gestures. Ooh goodie!

[dpny]

And why can't XP dev's do better than that......................?

Looks like Javier did a 737, to me.

[MatthewS]

The fact remains there is nothing in XP that can compete with the detailed systems modelling of the PMDG NGX  (nor for that matter the PMDG 747-400/800, MD11, LDS-767 or FSL ConcordeX).  Seems like the only thing that comes remotely close is the CRJ-200 and potentially the IXEG 737 when released (I sure hope so).

IMHO XP10 has lost its golden opportunity to capture market share from FSX.  If only it had been released in December last year as was expected then we might actually have seen more FSX developers releasing XP products by now.   Apart from a few aircraft by Carenado and the REX texture pack has anyone else of note from the FSX sphere bothered with XP?

[Cameron]

...from a few aircraft by Carenado and the REX texture pack has anyone else of note from the FSX sphere bothered with XP?

Many...TBA.

A lot more than you're privvy to is going on behind the scenes thanks to a joint effort between several entities.

[Goran_M]

The fact remains there is nothing in XP that can compete with the detailed systems modelling of the PMDG NGX  (nor for that matter the PMDG 747-400/800, MD11, LDS-767 or FSL ConcordeX).  Seems like the only thing that comes remotely close is the CRJ-200 and potentially the IXEG 737 when released (I sure hope so).

IMHO XP10 has lost its golden opportunity to capture market share from FSX.  If only it had been released in December last year as was expected then we might actually have seen more FSX developers releasing XP products by now.   Apart from a few aircraft by Carenado and the REX texture pack has anyone else of note from the FSX sphere bothered with XP?

I think we're having a problem with your statement that X Plane developers will never create systems simulations that can equal or exceed PMDG's 737.  It's like you have condemned us to 2nd place regardless of what tech will eventuate with systems coding.

Don't write us off just yet, Matthew.  The tools are there for us to exploit.  If the IXEG 737 is going to turn out like I think it will, it'll be PMDG who will be saying "DAMN, that's a bloody good add on!" to the IXEG guys.

[hobofat]

A lot more than you're privvy to is going on behind the scenes thanks to a joint effort between several entities.

That's what I like to hear!

[MatthewS]

A lot more than you're privvy to is going on behind the scenes thanks to a joint effort between several entities.

Excellent! Any clues as to what these are?

[MatthewS]

I think we're having a problem with your statement that X Plane developers will never create systems simulations that can equal or exceed PMDG's 737.  It's like you have condemned us to 2nd place regardless of what tech will eventuate with systems coding.

Don't write us off just yet, Matthew.  The tools are there for us to exploit.  If the IXEG 737 is going to turn out like I think it will, it'll be PMDG who will be saying "DAMN, that's a bloody good add on!" to the IXEG guys.

I have no doubt that X-Plane devs have the talent to build the equivalent of PMDG products.

I just question whether the amount of "investment" required in developing equivalent products will be undertaken by X-Plane devs given the rather small returns of the X-plane market (compared to FSX).

That's I suspect why PMDG seems not interested in X-Plane, the market is not large enough to justify the investment required to produce products of the depth we are used to with PMDG.

[Cameron]

I just question whether the amount of "investment" required in developing equivalent products will be undertaken by X-Plane devs given the rather small returns of the X-plane market (compared to FSX).

The problem with this statement is that it's speculation on your part. You assume the return would be small for the investment. I can tell you without hesitation that the money is there, and some products have in very obvious ways shown so to those that need to know.