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How to make a kiss landing like Jan


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Hi guys,

 

I've already done 5 flights, but i'm struggling to flare correctly. initially after watching jan video where he always manage to get a TD @ >-200 fts/min, i thought that the ground effect was a big deal as he flared only between 30-10 fts AGL (especially on the crosswind video a couple of years ago) and get a nice little flotting for a kiss landing. 

 

Currently i start to flare at  30 fts AGL if my VS is between -700/-800 fts/min until i reach a 5° of pitch then i let go the yoke to neutral as I thought  that the ground effect would cut off the remaining VS. But as soon as i put the yoke in neutral the pitch goes down quite fast,thus a hard touchdown.

during the flare, should we keep some back pressure in order to maintain a pitch of 5° unti TD ?

 

go at the end of the videos for the flare.

 

the thing that amazed me is how quickly the VS is increasing from -800fts/min to -50 fts/min in this video :

 

 

i guess i need trainning, that's for sure but i need to train the right way : when to start flaring depending on the wind (HD or TL), Delta speed compared to Vapp....

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Back pressure is always needed as you will need to acquire the right pitch and hold it. As airspeed drops, a bit more pressure will be needed to maintain your pitch angle until the plane stops flying and you touch down. Ideally at or below 100fpm giving you a nice touchdown. Practice  practice practice. 

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Keep in mind that if you perfectly trim the aircraft for ref + 5, the aircraft all ready requires a little back pressure in the flare. As the aircraft enters ground effect, there will be a tendency for the nose to drop requiring more back pressure. The flare is a 2 to 3 degree pitch change. My technique is to use the rate of altitude call outs to judge your sink rate. The rate of call outs will drive your pitch rate. At the 20ft call out, smoothly add back pressure to get the nose up to 5 to 6 degrees. Also at 20ft, reduce the power. Right at the 10ft call out, you should be just attaining pitch and the engines are just about to reach idle by touch down. 

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From first sight: You seem to be a bit fast, but maybe you are high on weight.
Also you are a bit high, the VASI are all white.

Try to be at 50 ft at the threshold and look outside!

During the final moments your scan should be "airspeed-touchdown markers".

Your flare is a bit hard, flare slower. I try to fly the plane level at 2-5 ft, the decreasing

airspeed will do the rest. And don't get fixed on reaching 5° pitch, raise the nose

by about 2.5-3° depending on your pitch during approach. There is also a description

on how to do it in the handbooks. And don't worry if you don't do a soft landing. Most

important is, that it's in the touchdown zone, if you can't make it then do a go-around and try again!

 

Last, but not least... do a dual-channel autopilot approach and watch how the AP does it. :-)

Edited by frumpy
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On 2016. 04. 24. at 1:28 AM, g650flyer said:

Keep in mind that if you perfectly trim the aircraft for ref + 5, the aircraft all ready requires a little back pressure in the flare.

That is a good practice to trim the bird as required for smooth flight. Its grueling, when a pilot fights against the forces on the column. Pulling, or pressing constantly to be able to keep the profile. So, I kindly advise you set and use the trim wheel. It will be your best friend during all virtual, and real flights as well.

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Best help for me so far was Jan's BREAK advice in the Pilots- Quick Reference Handbook (LANDING). Instead of an "early" flare you should rather "break" the descend just 10-20ft above ground with a decisive input. My landings are way better now in every regard. Following the proper APPROACH procedures helps a lot to get the  speed, alt, descend rate and configuration right. No kiss without that ;)

If you didn't read TFM, do it now.

Flo

 

Edited by FloB
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20 hours ago, eurocat said:

That is a good practice to trim the bird as required for smooth flight. Its grueling, when a pilot fights against the forces on the column. Pulling, or pressing constantly to be able to keep the profile. So, I kindly advise you set and use the trim wheel. It will be your best friend during all virtual, and real flights as well.

I was alrerady correctly trimmed as i was stable at 1500fts and disconnect the AP at 1000 fts.

But now my landing are much better

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Read the FCTM, section on LANDING. Other then that, practice.

Don't become too obsessed with "greasing" the landing. The AP will touchdown at 150 fpm or so, that's the perfect rate. The FCTM tells you to "fly the aircraft onto the runway" and "don't allow the aircraft to float in an attempt of getting a smooth touchdown".

There's SOOO many more parameters that define a good landing. That's why I've always been against those FPM-meters at touchdown, or those virtual airlines that would grant more points the lower the number... Ridiculous...

Oh, and watch this interesting video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMcXbAmwiNs&index=23&list=PLZIehabHdEOc6RBK0OHDVPP_V6NSgaSky

 

Edited by Alpha Floor
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11 minutes ago, Alpha Floor said:

Read the FCTM, section on LANDING. Other then that, practice.

Don't become too obsessed with "greasing" the landing. The AP will touchdown at 150 fpm or so, that's the perfect rate. The FCTM tells you to "fly the aircraft onto the runway" and "don't allow the aircraft to float in an attempt of getting a smooth touchdown".

There's SOOO many more parameters that define a good landing. That's why I've always been against those FPM-meters at touchdown, or those virtual airlines that would grant more points the lower the number... Ridiculous...

Oh, and watch this interesting video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMcXbAmwiNs&index=23&list=PLZIehabHdEOc6RBK0OHDVPP_V6NSgaSky

 

 

I know but there is a difference between -150/-200 and -500/-600 as i usually do well used to do.

when performing base trainning I found that my landing were better than the one when i do a medium haul flight because on these flight, i found myself that i was always floating over the runway but then i figured that the GW wasn't updating so my Vrapp was higher than normal......

know i manage to get a -100/-300 V/S at touch down.

 

Also i've yet seen a 737CL pilot landing at -400/-500, they all do kiss landing with minimal of floating :)

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1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

I know but there is a difference between -150/-200 and -500/-600 as i usually do well used to do.

I've seen the videos and the landings look fine to me!

Second video: Around 300 fpm. Third video, maybe 200? It's perfectly okay.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The VSI is a iVSI and does not show current vertical speed but with a delay of about 2-3seconds. A 200fps touchdown will be a very hard one. :)

 

Normally you are at about 50fpm on touchdown. You should begin to flare at 20feet and use your "popo meter". It is also harder to land on a slope up runway than on slope down.

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18 hours ago, stefans85 said:

The VSI is a iVSI and does not show current vertical speed but with a delay of about 2-3seconds. A 200fps touchdown will be a very hard one. :)

 

Normally you are at about 50fpm on touchdown. You should begin to flare at 20feet and use your "popo meter". It is also harder to land on a slope up runway than on slope down.

 

If there is a delay, why will a -200 fpm be a hard one ? as the VS is is increasing if I were at -200 fpm while the VSI still increasing ( with a delay) it means that the real VS was >-100 fpm when the VSI showed -200 fpm

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What I meant is the real rate. Even 150fpm are pretty hard on a 737 because of the much lesser suspension travelrange when comparing to i.e. A320 while it's ok on a A320. A smooth landing has a real rate of let's say 50-100fpm. That's atleast what I feel when flying up in front. 150+ are firm landings and anything above 500fpm is pretty hard. I don't know the real value but 800+ fpm on touchdown and you get printed a hard landing sheet and the technical guy's will check the pressure bulkhead. I know an Air Berlin landing where a panel on the wing came up. :D

One word about smooth landings: You don't want to be as smooth as possible but safe! First if there's crosswind you won't flare too much. Also you won't miss the touchdown zone. But if the safe landing is also smooth, it's ok. :)

Edited by stefans85
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Just so you know guys:

All FAR-25 certified transport category aircraft (like the 737) have a design vertical speed at touchdown of 600 fpm. This value is the limit load. The ultimate load is the limit one times 1.5. 

This means, any landing UNDER 600 fpm is a soft one. Above 600 fpm and under 900 fpm is a hard one, and above 900 fpm is an accident.

At exactly 600 fpm you're landing at design conditions, so you should be perfectly fine :)

(just joking)

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23 minutes ago, tdplane said:

You're joking? OK. Please tell us how to operate in real life. What is a good landing on the 733? What is acceptable?

Do an Autoland and see how the Autopilot does it :)

Also read the rest of the thread and watch the videos.

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32 minutes ago, Alpha Floor said:

Looks perfectly fine to me :)

Maybe not the most "elegant" landing because of centerline deviation, but whatever. Good one!

 

yeah that was my first time landing with my left hand as i am a right handed person. even though, I still have a hard time landing on the centerline...

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