Why X-Pilot forum?

[nplo]

I originally joined this forum because of the link with X-Aviation. I have only just realised that it is a full X-Plane forum and, of course, that it is in competition with the .org forum. Competition is very healthy, but having two similar forums makes spotting topics of interest more difficult. At the moment, if I wanted to post a topic about an X-Aviation product I would use this forum, on any other X-Plane matter I would use the .org forum. Anyway, I'd like to know if there are any good reasons why this forum should be favoured over the .org forum, also I've noticed one or two disparaging posts in this forum about the .org forum and some of its members. Therefore, I'd be grateful for any illumination on this subject.

[FloB]

As far as I understand the matter there is a long history behind that, eventually growing into an (personal and "political") animosity between some of the main developers and vendors for a couple of reasons. Now there are kind of two different ecosystems and that's going to be permanent. There are also X-Plane forums over at AVSIM and aerosoft, which are not involved in that hassle.

 

Best illumination I can offer is: Go and see for yourself where you like it most, or just use both or all of them. You'll get used to it.

 

Flo

Edited November 19, 2015 by FloB

[nplo]

Thanks Flo. Shame about the animosity. Trouble is, I like to keep an eye on posts generally, never know what might come up and it is much more easy just following one forum as I have been doing. Tapatalk's timeline is really useful for seeing what's going on, but even on that you have to switch timelines for the different forums. Not a big deal I know, but it makes a quick look turn into not such a quick look, if you know what I mean. As you say, I'll have to make up my own mind.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FloB]

Well, the X-Plane world isn't turning that fast. And real/major news will pop up at all forums eventually.

If you want inside information about X-Plane's developement (Laminar Research) you should track Ben Supnik's developer blog:

 

http://developer.x-plane.com/

 

It's the closest you can get to X-Plane developement and is usually a good read even if you are no developer.

BUT mind: It's NOT a support page for customers, NO bug reporting page, and fishing for information about upcoming features is No good and will NOT work. Updates vary from weekly to monthly.

 

Flo

Edited November 19, 2015 by FloB

[nplo]

If you want inside information about X-Plane's developement (Laminar Research) you should track Ben Supnik's developer blog:

http://developer.x-plane.com/

Have noted, thanks again.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tkyler]

NOTE:  This is my candid opinion and version....and I present it as a form of "history for the curious from Tom Kylers perspective".  I am quite sure others' perspectives will differ.  Any attempts to argue these points in this post will result in a rapidly locked thread.  The finer points of some of the high level statements below are best left buried here.  Such points can only be dredged up over many hours of spoken words and beer. 

 

In the beginning was x-plane.org.  It was a true dotorg, non-profit and for the community.  In the early days, it subsisted on sales of coffee cups and T-shirts to cover some costs.  It grew at a nice pace.   Over time,  the ownership changed hands a few times.   The org became THE place to share x-plane information, scenery, aircraft and such and many of us were regular contributors to add-ons and knowledge.  The current owner saw this value and purchased the org several years back and turned it into more of a business.    He operates a store there and of course the forums and free downloads draws folks to the domain.   There was no competition to sell x-plane add-ons at this time. (pre 2009)

 

In 2008, I created a product for sale, the Mitsubishi MU-2, but before I sold it....I had very particular needs and specifications that I insisted upon as a vendor of 3rd party aircraft. I felt as though the x-plane add-on world, at the time,  did not portray the kind of quality the rest of the flight sim world (i.e. FSX users) was used to and in order to draw more FSX folks to what x-plane was capable of, I felt we needed better products and better marketing.  There were products being sold on x-plane.org and marketed as "the best of x-plane", but these products were getting insulted by the FSX community.  I didn't much like that as I felt it was stifling x-plane growth.    I had a dialog with x-plane.org concerning selling my MU-2 there but we could not come to terms to my satisfaction.   I approached the now-owner of X-Aviation and requested he build a new store for my product and in 2009, X-Aviation opened its doors with the MU-2 as its sole product and built on a platform of high quality....the definition of which is, of course, subjective.   We had been spreading word of the MU2 during its development through x-plane.org and when I didn't sell the MU2 there, it was seen as a bit of a slap to the ownership by some.

 

But you see, for the longest time,  the org had no such alliances with any commercial interests....but with the new ownership, the forums were now inextricably linked with the store.  I personally viewed this as a potential conflict of interest given the spirit of the org and its .org domain.  I made the case to switch it to a .com and I'd be satisfied, but did not like that the site moved forward under the guise of a "open" dotorg, given its link with the store.  There were hints that the forums were only open to "supporters of the org business model".  The forums became an advertising ground for the org store.

 

So, when it came out that x-plane.org had competition, words began to get exchanged behind the scenes, feelings were hurt, X-Aviation and myself were deemed "arrogant" and narcissistic...and creating another store came across as "our stuff is too good to be sold on your site".  Once feelings were hurt, then views began to become skewed and what is true gets lost to one's perspective, tinted by their emotions...we are all subject to this.    To make matters worse, a few other developers came to X-Aviation to sell their products here and they were rejected due to a lack of quality...that really pissed off some folks too.  Some of those folks now sell at the org store but one went back to the drawing board, upped his quality and came back to X-Aviation....so not everybody took the rejection in the same way.  That person went on to be part of the LES team that sells the SAAB 340.  

 

So it was that in the course of words exchanged, some publicly, some behind the scenes...x-plane.org banned several of us from the org and we had no 'home' per se.....and so we created X-Pilot as a 'free' community.  Again, by doing this , we further insinuated that the org was now a dictatorship and if you didn't support the leadership, you found yourself cast out.....Animosity flourished further.  There were cases were innocent users would purchase my MU2 at x-aviation, post a picture of it on the org, unawares of the link between the forums and the store... and that users post would summarily disappear from the org.  A few users got vocal about this and were banned from the org also.  Those users inevitably came to the only alternative...and x-pilot started life as a band of 'outcasts' from the org...malcontents who complained all the time and bad-mouthed the org.   Feelings of key developers and distributors really got hurt during this time in x-plane history.  As with any breakaway, it wasn't pretty and we were scrapping for our place in the x-plane world against a juggernaut....so yes, we were a bit edgy at the time. These stories are buried here on x-pilot somewhere I'm sure.  In the heat of battle, some folks were banned from x-pilot as well just to keep the peace.  Both sides were stalwart that their 'ways' were justified.  Only a few folks know all the facts and we all seem to interpret the facts differently.   Time passed.

 

Since that early beginning, X-Pilot and X-Aviation have grown steadily and healthily, fueled by persons that say, "we should do things X way"....while the org and its developers are fueled by persons that say, "we should do things Y way"...competition 101...and these ways are different and we don't agree on many things....and a lot of folks still have hurt feelings.  A lot of us have also moved on, feeling that those early days are typical of any early business battle/growth and we are no longer at the same place we were then.   Apologies by all parties have not been forthcoming over time though so bad blood still persists with some...not terribly unexpected, we can still remain civil though.   I myself have sincerely reached out to everyone that I know I offended to apologize.  To this day, I still harbor no ill-will, see the past as a struggle we had to go through to be where we are today.  

 

So, finally..... regarding the forums, X-Pilot was never intended to be a replacement for the file sharing that goes on at the org...sure we have a file library here, but it seriously lacks compared to the org and really only exists to give people with sufficient conviction an alternative to post their work.  X-Pilot was created just so us old-timer outcasts could communicate.    I would simply tell you that the owner of the org forums DOES own the org store as well and does not tolerate what I would term, "sending folks away from his site", so post no links to the outside world or competition for sure!   I myself have come to respect his position, albeit reluctantly in the early going. The org is a fantastic place to discuss and interact with the community, get information and answers about a great many things. 

 

I will not tell you to favor one forum over the other, you should judge the merits of each based on what you expect and further receive from each.  Each forum has a different 'tone' and the size/resources of each make for a different atmosphere at each.  I WILL say though, that with regards to x-plane add-on development and operation, that x-pilot has a few folks with very deep knowledge who are unable to contribute to questions/conversations should they be put forth on the org only. 

 

-tkyler

Edited November 19, 2015 by tkyler

[nplo]

It's lunchtime in the UK and I've just sat down with my lunch to read your carefully crafted pros with great interest. I always like knowing a little bit about the histories of organisations and I thank you for such a long and detailed reply. I must say that my own experience of .org has been very good, but I have no axe to grind and this forum certainly seems a friendly enough place with some good expertise. Shame I can't sit down and have a chat with you over a beer at our local pub, The Two Brewers, but ( a) you are too far away and (b ) you may not like the beer!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited November 19, 2015 by nplo

[Cameron]

you may not like the beer

 

I wouldn't be so sure. If there's one thing Tom likes it's beer!

[Litjan]

I wouldn't be so sure. If there's one thing Tom likes it's beer!

 

Amen!

[mgeiss]

I do follow both forums, and won't stop participating in one or the other. You can't say that one or the other is better or worse in general. Just as in real life, there are good people and there are idiots everywhere you go. You have the choice to ignore the ones you don't like, as long as it's not your family.

[poppet]

Great post Tkyler.   To be honest i have always wondered that myself.      

 

Anyway's great post     And great work too 

[Sebas00]

Great post! Hope more healing can do.