Debate On Realism

[JohnMAXX]

Edwin brought up a good point recently in the "What Did You Fly Today" thread here on X-Pilot.

 

My initial response was I generally do not debate such things,  but now that I thought about it that sounds very dismissive and I have a few key points I would like to discuss.

 

I also want to hear from the community and feel we can all benefit from such a topic.....

 

Yes I will admit there is a great deal of abstraction and creative license I use when developing my MAXX stuff.  I like to think outside the box and my style of development is unique in that respect.  The Very idea of UrbanMAXX goes against Austins plausible concept and brings ortho like textures to towns and cities.  The development of UM is a direct result of feedback from the community.....

 

My sky colors and clouds address a few issues ,again, the community touched on.

 

1.Dull and boring skies

2.Brown water, yes the skycolors affect the water color

 

Sky colors seem to be the most controversial subject that comes up in environmental development of X-Plane.

 

GlacierMAXX was a test to see how normal maps work with terrain textures,  it looks pretty good but will be greatly improved upon in the future.

 

BeachMAXX works by adding a tropical look to the coastlines.  This is probably my least refined add-on and again will be improved upon in the future.

 

Ok I wanted to outline a few of my add-ons, now lets talk about how the interact with the user.

 

From what  I have seen from the community there seems to be two parallels to MAXX...

 

1.  Pleasure sensors in the brain go off and belief is suspended and they enjoy the sim...

2. Wow that looks completely fake and look at those sloppy orthos crazy skycolors so on and so on.....

 

The first group gets my vision, in the case of UM it is a trick of the eye using some advanced texturing and the existing autogen to fill in on a global scale towns and cities.

 

My impression of the second group, these are the guys who like complete ortho photos of a particular area, that isn't the goal of any of my add-ons and on a global scale it would be impossible.

 

So what you have is a very impressionistic approach to urban areas which works well.  Is it perfect, not in a million years but I am developing add-on texture packs to hopefully bring more people over to UrbanMAXX.

 

All my add-ons are more vivid then default, this is a core design approach of mine.  My impression of this style is it makes X-Plane seem more alive and less flat......Doing this triggers pleasure sensors in my brain during the development process so I pass it off to the end user.

 

 

Another good point in regard to how I produce a screenshot, I completely manipulate X-Plane to look more like a piece of art.  I spend a lot of time tweaking cloud layers, time of day, picking a location so on and so on until I get something that looks nice.  This is part of the hobby for me, it is a left over from my MSFS days.  This hobby of virtual spotting is not as big in the X-Plane community and may be misunderstood by some.  I very rarely take a screenshot with real world weather....by no means are they natural....

 

 

Just a few thoughts of mine id like to share with you all....

 

 

 

 

[john82088]

I appreciate all you have done to add to xplane 10. Thank you for your contributions. It has made my flying experience more enjoyable.

[JohnMAXX]

Thanks John 

[cruster]

I've looked at your *Maxx packages, but it's not clear to me that they (or which ones) will work on OSX. I thought I read a blurb somewhere that they were/are Windows only. The skies in particular were what attracted me, so I'm with you on the garish, fluorescent colors hitting a pleasure center thing.

[JohnMAXX]

I've looked at your *Maxx packages, but it's not clear to me that they (or which ones) will work on OSX. I thought I read a blurb somewhere that they were/are Windows only. The skies in particular were what attracted me, so I'm with you on the garish, fluorescent colors hitting a pleasure center thing.

I will have an OSX version of SkyMAXX Extreme out in the near future with more options, some less dramatic.....and many different cloud textures...

[larjeet]

John Urbanmax and skymax are just what Xplane 10 needed . What a lot of people don't get is that Urban max is an ortho texture replacement and not an overlay it does not take away from Austin's plausible world but enhances it by replacing unrealistic ugly green textures with realistic urban textures . I just don't get why Green space  where houses should be is plausible .

[JohnMAXX]

thanks Larjeet!

[cruster]

I will have an OSX version of SkyMAXX Extreme out in the near future with more options, some less dramatic.....and many different cloud textures...

 

That's great, John. Will you also be releasing CloudMAXX for OSX? Does UrbanMAXX impact FPS at all (for good or bad0? One last question...is UrbanMAXX Extreme v2 3D OSX ready/compatible? If so, I'll buy it today and support your 3rd party development effort. Sorry to turn your debate on realism into a pre-sales support thread. :S

 

To get it back on topic, I did read a comment on your site from someone which asserted that photo scenery is a move backwards from the XP10 design goal of 'plausible realism.' I understand what they're saying, but until the hardware is capable of supporting the sim rendering dynamic 3D based on the underlying terrain/land use type, I'm not sure there is an alternative. Kudos to Austin for forward thinking and building the engine now, but I don't think we're anywhere near that (plausible?) reality.

[chris k]

I spend a lot of time tweaking cloud layers, time of day, picking a location so on and so on until I get something that looks nice.

 

What!? You don't just load up X-Plane at low texture resolution with massive jaggies w/no anti-aliaising and take a picture of your plane sitting upside down on a car roadway somewhere?! (... oh, and don't forget to do it at midnight too )

 

Sacrilege!

 

- Ck.

 

p.s. all John's masterpieces work fine on OSX in terms of the texture replacements, skycolour replacements, etc... ( Some of his latest creations use a client-side GUI to do the actual install of the textures, tho - John can help you out in this regard ).

[JohnMAXX]

Cruster I agree 100% I like the idea of using only autogen to make a completely scalable world but I dont feel computing power is there yet.....

 

I am sure there is a minimal impact from the normal maps and textures, but I think the difference is nominal .  UM works to help save fps by allowing users with lower end hardware dial down the number of objects and still maintain an urban environment.

 

UM along with my freeware add-ons work in OSX/ Linux, SkyMAXX Extreme uses a plugin and that is why Windows is currently the only supported platform.

 

Here is a link to Cloudmaxx: http://maxx-xp.hiking-pa.com/?page_id=147

 

Freeware SkyMAXX: http://maxx-xp.hiking-pa.com/?page_id=205   -----I have heard people complain that skymaxx hurts fps, I havent seen it or know why it would....

 

Can try out a free version of UrbanMAXX, it doesnt have global coverage or some of the more advanced features that are in UME: http://maxx-xp.hiking-pa.com/?page_id=6

 

 

 

Ah Im all debated out...lol

[JohnMAXX]

Thanks Chris for clearing that up.....

[cruster]

p.s. all John's masterpieces work fine on OSX in terms of the texture replacements, skycolour replacements, etc... ( Some of his latest creations use a client-side GUI to do the actual install of the textures, tho - John can help you out in this regard ).

 

Ooh, I wonder if I can fire up the installed in Fusion and point it at my XP10 install on the native OSX drive. Hrmm. 

[Sgt R Lee Ermey]

I just took a look at your products and have to say some of them look great.  Especially the one that fixes the sky colors. 

[Colin S]

Frankly, with my discovery of the gamma tricks, I've fallen in love with your products (please don't file a restraining order). Anyways, as I'm typing this, I'm staring out at an unbelievable west coast sunset, the ENTIRE sky is bright pink, red and yellow. That can only be simulated with SkyMAXX.

 

In regards to everything, I believe that a simulator looking real is just as important as it feeling real, however one cannot go without the other (for instance, FSX, or CinderBlock Simulator X). That's why X-Plane 9 was always a "meh" to me (compared to the "what the fark is this bloody awful program doing on my PC" that FSX got). X-Plane 10 has opened up new routes.

 

Keep doing what you're doing, it's AMAZING.

[JohnMAXX]

Thanks Colin.....

[krogerfoot]

UrbanMAXX is a great product. It works seamlessly with my setup (first-generation Mac Pro with a metric sh+t-tonne of memory but hobbled as ever by the heaviest-duty video card I can shoehorn into it). The realism debate is not one I'm too interested in. For me, the experience of setting things up to fly a given route and following it through to touchdown is enormously satisfying, and one of the things that really enhances that is the buzzing activity going on below. The jewel-box effect of an urban center at dusk/nighttime adds tremendously to the experience.

 

I'm completely uninterested in getting peripheral equipment like yokes, etc., so I'm happy to use a mouse. Given that I'm sitting at my desk, checking my e-mail, playing Scrabble, and flying airliners that were already ancient when I was born, how "real" it all is seems to me to be a moot issue.

 

With advances in computer technology and the efforts of talented people like John, in a year we'll look back at our painstakingly set up systems and marvel that we were able to suspend our disbelief and enjoy these relatively primitive simulations. I don't remember loving the very first stick-figure-based kerosene-powered Flight Simulator any less than XP10 now.

[Flying_pig]

Actually i can tell you from actual use of both a mouse and joystick the joystick has a 100% gurantee that it will at least triple your amount of realism and really you'll probably have more hassle using a mouse then you will using a joystick not to mention that they are pretty cheap my first one (a logitech extreme 3-d pro) cost me $5 and worked like a charm the entire time i used it however be warned you may reconsider not wanting to upgrade after this (i have invested another $1,500) also to get such a good deal check youre local goodwill i use goodwill specifically by the way because i can tell you for a fact that they test the electronics they sell to make sure they work

[Wetted Area]

 I just don't get why Green space  where houses should be is plausible .

 

Wait a minute.  You mean X-Plane 10 Global is supposed to look like that?  There are supposed to be vast open green spaces instead of cities, towns, urban and rural sprawl?  Is that why my Version 10.10x does not look exactly like the same version that Austin was presenting in Feldberg?

 

This is news to me!  I thought I was doing something wrong with the set-up/configuration of my installation and I was actually looking for someone to tell me how to get it looking like the X-Plane 10 Global Video on the companies website - because that is what Austin as been presenting as X-Plane 10.  So, I was sold.

 

So, what do I do now - I mean, all the nice looking textures, landclasses, scenery, surface level topology, city scapes, etc., are all being developed for FSX it seems like and not X-Plane.  Now, I have to start looking for accurate, well done U.S. scenery for the Western States that works with X-Plane 10 Global.  I spent a lot of time studying videos of some really nice looking area topology and airport quality, running inside X-Plane 10.  But, the vast majority of those really nice set-ups were land coverage areas in the United Kingdom.  I live in the United States and would like the same coverage out in my neck of the woods as well.  I'm an equal opportunity photo realist.    I like the good stuff just like any other European - I'm no different in that regard.

 

I thought Global meant, well... Global.  I thought the problem with X-Plane was that it did not have good Airport coverage and that you had to go out and buy third-party Airport Models, just like you would buy third-party Aircraft Models.  I had no idea that X-Plane lacked accurate terrain coverage between the airports as well (not until I installed it).  Bummer. 

 

So, let me make sure I understand this:  With X-Plane, you basically get a Flight Simulator with AutoGeneric scenery between airports and no realistic airport coverage at all.  However, you do get a much better (in my humble opinion) flight dynamic experience and superior aircraft handling with respect to real aircraft behavior.

 

Does that sum it up correctly, please?  Did I just learn something new today.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Wetted Area

[ryancz]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

However, the cities and towns, etc, are made of objects, facades, and roads instead. No ground texture. Mess around with rendering options to see what I mean.

Airports are very basic. But it is easy to install scenery, or even make your own.

The selling point of X-Plane has always it's flight dynamics, and now it's trending toward being more graphical.

Overall, if you can "break it in", you should be able to find settings you like, and get scenery installed. Then you can fly around with a good looking world.

[Cameron]

So, let me make sure I understand this:  With X-Plane, you basically get a Flight Simulator with AutoGeneric scenery between airports and no realistic airport coverage at all.  However, you do get a much better (in my humble opinion) flight dynamic experience and superior aircraft handling with respect to real aircraft behavior.

 

To a degree, correct. I don't discount it THAT much because I actually think it is quite good at what it does knowing what it was intended to do, but I won't sugar coat! Roads, etc are accurate. Buildings are not. More info is in the other topic we have been discussing in.

 

You can, of course, enhance your scenery with add-ons: http://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/xplane-scenery-c-24.html

[Bobback]

Thank you for your contribution JohnMAXX.

 

Im new to X-Plane, just started last week with XP10, but flying more than 10 years on MSFS.

Regarding scenery i actually like XP10 out of the box except for the lack of airport scenery, and since i live outside US, it gets harder to find scenery. But since there are some tutorials on the web i'll start to learn and see if i can do my own airports.

 

I must admit i haven't used any of MAXX plugins yet, but i watched 2 video on youtube one showing UrbanMAXX and the other one SkyMAXX wip and judging by the videos i say just one thing: You did a pretty good job.