Go Around with subsequent approach; process and checklist questions

[KirkR]

GA's really take some practice to get the fast moving process down.  From my practice, I lean away from using the GA checklist, with one reason being that I do not prefer how it chooses FLC, but also because so many things occur so quickly and pressing next checklist item button so many times during that intense process is not ideal.  The issue I run into occurs after the HOLD (MAP) when I vector myself (HDG) for the same approach again.

The issue I am running into is that "Set GA Thrust" suddenly "jumps in" at a time where it is the least expected (when moving to the Before Landing checklist after the GA and HOLD, as I am re-establishing on the ILS approach again).  I will outline some aspects of my process as follows:

-  shoot normal ILS approach (descent, in range, before landing checklists were all used)
-  MA initiated (TO/GA + ATS-disc, flaps 30, gear up, flaps 20, flaps up, AP + NAV, re-establish ATS, pattern altitude captured, enter MAP HOLD.  No checklist used.
-  Exit HOLD, HDG for vectors back to re-shoot approach
-  On 30 deg intercept crs for ILS, at appropriate altitude for intercept, just outside of IF
-  Select "Next Checklist" from top menu, initiates Before Landing checklist.  This is when "Set Takeoff Thrust" appears, TO thrust is automatically set by the system, and everything now is screwed up.

Note:  it seems that after a MA, any time that I use Next Checklist to bring up the next checklist, that the "Set Takeoff Thrust" action is taken by the system.  It's like it isn't handling when I skip the GA checklist and is dead set on initiating GA Thrust itself regardless, but triggered by "Next Checklist."

My goal has been to generate a clean, representative video of the GA and subsequent re-shoot approach scenario to post in the forum.  But there are aspects of the process that I need to understand in order to make this work properly.  I presently do leverage the checklists, with the one exception being the GA checklist.  It seems that possibly I may have created a problem by doing it manually and not using it.

It would be of high value if there is documentation that helps with understanding of the GA process (how the sim is set up with respect to use of the checklists, or skipping of the checklists) including the subsequent re-shoot of the approach, and possibly from this information I can figure out the issue.

Let me know what additional questions I can answer to help shed light on it.

Thanks

[Pils]

I believe it’s not possible to use the virtual F/O for the flight but not the go-around. As long as it’s enabled as soon as you press the TO/GA button the virtual F/O’s G/A procedure (it’s not a checklist) is armed, and as far as I know it can’t be skipped at that point. So selecting a different checklist is irrelevant.

The developer knows this system is problematic and plans a full overhaul of the virtual F/O in a future, as yet undetermined, update.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Pils

[KirkR]

Thanks for clarifying.  Can you help me understand how the system is set up in terms of the sequencing, and how it aligns to the process of doing a MAP HOLD, and then shooting another approach?  For example, what is the purpose of the "Immediate Return" ... and how does the current sim function in terms of checklists after the MAP HOLD when returning?  I assume Descent and In Range are no longer required at this point, only Before Landing.  But how does the sim checklist process work in this scenario?

 

[dlrk]

18 hours ago, Pils said:

I believe it’s not possible to use the virtual F/O for the flight but not the go-around.

The FO Go-Around procedure can be disabled on User Settings -> F/O Assists -> Automatic First Officer -> "Do Go-Around Actions on Go-Around"

(:

[Pils]

1 hour ago, dlrk said:

The FO Go-Around procedure can be disabled on User Settings -> F/O Assists -> Automatic First Officer -> "Do Go-Around Actions on Go-Around"

(:

Oh look at that! Thanks!

[Pils]

12 hours ago, KirkR said:

Thanks for clarifying.  Can you help me understand how the system is set up in terms of the sequencing, and how it aligns to the process of doing a MAP HOLD, and then shooting another approach?  For example, what is the purpose of the "Immediate Return" ... and how does the current sim function in terms of checklists after the MAP HOLD when returning?  I assume Descent and In Range are no longer required at this point, only Before Landing.  But how does the sim checklist process work in this scenario?

 

As far as I recall after the G/A procedure is complete the Immediate Return checklist is activated. At the end of which it advances to Before Landing and you complete an approach as normal. Just keep smashing the “next item” checklist bind and off you go. It should be seamless.

But apparently I couldn’t remember there was user setting for disabling the procedure, which is what you wanted, so I may well be wrong here too!

Edited August 31, 2022 by Pils

[KirkR]

I am consistently finding that I am unable to capture the ILS approach after executing an approach and MAP.  I have captured this in a video.  There are several things in this video that I would like to highlight:

-  as part of the GA/MAP I set AP and NAV, but if I switch the PFD Nav Source back to FMS after arming NAV, it disarms NAV as you can see in the video.  Is this the expected behavior?  If so then I should reset the Nav Source before arming NAV.
-  my assumption is that it does not matter if I execute the EXIT HOLD instruction or not, and then subsequently use HDG mode to vector back for the next ILS approach, as mentioned in the video.
-  what is the correct method to set up the FMS for the subsequent approach?  I basically reselect the approach, but is there a better way?
-  you'll see that the aircraft flies right through the localizer the second time.  Did I do something incorrectly?  Or is this a sim issue?
-  yes, I do drop the recording view to include the PFD/MFD soon after the first approach!

Set the recording settings to the highest resolution to see the details clearly.

Hoping for guidance on this one, as I've tried it multiple times with the same result.

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by KirkR

[flyingfudge]

@KirkROn the approach after the GA you were effectively in "no-mans land" as far as the FMS was concerned. It was in a state of "discontinuity" .

Effectively you had two choices from the radar vectored approach in HDG mode, either go direct TOLPE ( with intercept course if req'd) as in your first approach in HDG mode and arm the approach ( this would have given you the req'd NAV to NAV transfer) or select "NAV SRC" to change to green screen before localiser capture. Either would have intercepted and captured the localiser correctly. 

 

[Pils]

11 hours ago, KirkR said:

as part of the GA/MAP I set AP and NAV, but if I switch the PFD Nav Source back to FMS after arming NAV, it disarms NAV as you can see in the video.  Is this the expected behavior?  If so then I should reset the Nav Source before arming NAV.

Yes and yes.

11 hours ago, KirkR said:

what is the correct method to set up the FMS for the subsequent approach?  I basically reselect the approach, but is there a better way?

That’s fine. However, as flyingfudge says, if you’re going to stay in FMS NAV while using HDG you’ll want/need to keep the flight plan properly sequenced, as you did on the initial approach, so the aircraft’s automation knows what you’re trying to accomplish. Alternatively manually switch to LOC NAV, which is what I personally would do as it’s more predictable.

[KirkR]

Thanks to both of you for the replies.  Another day and another step forward.

 

[KirkR]

Unfortunately, applying the above adjustments DID NOT correct this issue.  I have a video that is presently being processed on Youtube so it will take maybe an hour+ to process the HD version.  Linked below.

What I did:

-  PFD NAV source FMS1
-  loaded the approach when exiting the hold
-  DIR TO w/ INTC CRS of 233 (approach hdg)
-  HDG mode (vectors) to 30 deg intercept
-  APPR armed

Same result, did not do the NAV-NAV transfer.

 

 

[VictoryAJ]

Not visible in your video - and disclaimer - I've only skimmed this thread......are you making sure the right seat is also selected back to FMS NAV source?

[KirkR]

Hello VictoryAJ.  I have never selected anything with the right seat to date in my flying of the CL60.  Never had an issue with capturing ILS or RNAV approaches.  But this scenario (a second approach attempt after MAP) is the new twist versus all prior flying.  So I'm interested in your question, and can re-try and keep an eye on that and will report back.

 

[flyingfudge]

@KirkR Sounds like that's the culprit!   If the co-pilot's side is on green screen and not FMS NAV then the NAV-NAV xfer doesn't activate.

[KirkR]

Indeed, I verified this with the sim.

Thanks very much for all of the assistance!  This was a very interesting one, several key learnings.  One day soon I will generate a video for the community that demonstrates the MAP, HOLD and then vector back to re-shoot the approach

Kirk

[flyingfudge]

Glad you got it sorted.   Don't worry, it caught me out the first time it happened to me as well! 

[KirkR]

An additional question for the CL60 pilots - regarding speed refs during the above scenario, and in the context of single pilot operations (sim):

-  How do you get the Vspeeds set up so that you can quickly switch between landing and takeoff speeds?  What I mean is, there are speeds that things occur at during the GA, such as flaps 30, gear up, flaps 20, flaps up.  But right before this you have the landing REFS set up on the speed tape.  And then you switch back to landing for the second approach attempt.

Is this something that the PM is focused on doing on the CDU to load the speeds up for the PF?  Any suggestions for single pilot in the sim?

 

 

[flyingfudge]

Absolutely. In RL the PM would setup the approach speeds in the FMS once the aircraft has been cleaned up after the go-around and is being vectored for another approach. With the high workload associated at the go-around the PF would normally engage the autopilot as early as practicable allowing time for both pilots to complete and cross-check cockpit preparations, checklists etc in readiness for the subsequent approach.

Single pilot in the sim is quite demanding but shouldn't take long to change the approach in the FMS, check the landing weight and send the revised perf landing v-speeds in the FMS especially if you're entering a hold after the go-around. 

 

 

[Pils]

1 hour ago, KirkR said:

Is this something that the PM is focused on doing on the CDU to load the speeds up for the PF?  Any suggestions for single pilot in the sim?

However if you’re asking about loading takeoff speeds during a G/A… Yeah, that’s not happening.

[dlrk]

It's flaps 20 at minimum of vRef, then flaps to zero at minimum of VFTO, right?

[KirkR]

Per the Challenger 650 Flight Crew Operations Manual (for Simulation/Entertainment Purposes Only):

[KirkR]

I created a video of a missed approach / go around / missed approach procedure for the Challenger.  Hope this is of value to the community.  Will continue to get better at this, but I think it does demonstrate the key elements reasonably well.  The input of an IRL Challenger pilot on this forum (@VictoryAJ) as well as Pils was critical to this - thank you!  And with feedback I am happy to refine and correct this as appropriate.