[OPEN] CTD on start in VR, also with V1.1.0

[Sleepy81]

Has been reported before during initial release, but I still get CTD when clicking on "Career mode" (FBO turned off in settings) or "Non-persistent mode", so i'd like to report it again to ensure the DEVs know its still an issue.

Today I tried to do a full clean reinstall of X-plane, and start with no mods whatsoever, besides the CL650.

Also tried to use both the Vulkan and OpenGL graphics modes. CTD in both cases.

 

Logs attached.

LOG OpenGl Graphics.txt LOG Vulcan Graphics.txt CL650_Log - OpenGL Graphics.txt CL650_Log - Vulcan Graphics.txt

[Pils]

Unfortunately, and I know this isn’t what you wanted to hear, but to my amateur eye (not an X-Plane developer, etc.) these crashes all seem to be caused by X-Plane itself, not code within the CL-650 itself. Without more detail in the log there’s not much the addon developers can go on. Maybe @Cameron has some tricks up his sleeve? But in the mean time it might be worth contacting Laminar Research’s support: https://www.x-plane.com/support/

[Sleepy81]

I've thought the same, as the logs don't tell you much about what went wrong.  CL650[except.c:213]: Caught EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION does not tell me anything besides "something went wrong"

However, the CL650 is the only aircraft that doesn't work in VR for me, and the only one who gives a CTD on start. So that leads me to think that the CL650 has some part in this as well...

Edited January 22, 2022 by Sleepy81

[Sleepy81]

Updated to V1.2.2 today. Still same problem. I'm at a loss as to why I can't start the CL650 in VR on my machine. I have also done the following steps to try and get it to work:

- Ensured all my graphic drivers and windows updates are up to date.

- Installed a new 2TB M.2 SSD

- Uninstalled X-plane and all addons.

- Installed X-plane from scratch on new SSD. (Previously installed under C:/Program Files (x86) as that's the default Steam install location. Read on a forum that that might cause issues with file permissions, so therefore I installed it on a non-system drive.)

- Installed only the CL650 V1.2.2

- Tried to start in VR, and also start in 2d, then change to VR. Same CTD.

- Tried to start Steam with admin rights.

- Tried to start X-plane with admin rights.

 

So, I'm at a loss. Anybody have any ideas as to what to try next? I have contacted Laminar Research for support, but no answer yet.

 

[Sleepy81]

So i got a reply from Laminar Research today, and this is what they wrote:

“Thanks for your report. We have some feedback which you could maybe share with developers.

Essentially we have looked at the Backtrace for your crash. Apparently, this backtrace is wild  

If I had to guess, it's one of Sasos 90 threads breaking apart

Since we have no visibility into it”

Somewhat difficult to understand what they mean, and almost like part of the answer is missing, but to me (I’m not a programmer), it looks like they are saying that they think the “Sasos 90 threads” (are they referring to Saso Kiselkov Librain plug-in here? I don’t have that installed, but maybe the CL650 has it integrated?) are breaking apart, but they cannot verify since they have no visibility into it. 

Does this answer say anything to the devs or somebody else here?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sleepy81

[Pils]

2 hours ago, Sleepy81 said:

So i got a reply from Laminar Research today, and this is what they wrote:

“Thanks for your report. We have some feedback which you could maybe share with developers.

Essentially we have looked at the Backtrace for your crash. Apparently, this backtrace is wild  

If I had to guess, it's one of Sasos 90 threads breaking apart

Since we have no visibility into it”

Somewhat difficult to understand what they mean, and almost like part of the answer is missing, but to me (I’m not a programmer), it looks like they are saying that they think the “Sasos 90 threads” (are they referring to Saso Kiselkov Librain plug-in here? I don’t have that installed, but maybe the CL650 has it integrated?) are breaking apart, but they cannot verify since they have no visibility into it. 

Does this answer say anything to the devs or somebody else here?

They’re talking about the CL-650’s systems, specifically (which don’t have Librain integrated at this time). But I really don’t understand how they came to that conclusion from the logs you posted here (assuming they saw the same ones), but I’m no expert. You may have to just not fly in VR, sad to say.

Just curious, what does the “--force_vr” command line option do exactly?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Pils

[Sleepy81]

Same logs as here, but they also had access to the crash report .rpt file. Maybe they found it there. 
 

—force_VR is probably something Steam inserts when you select “play using SteamVR” when starting the game from Steam. 

[Sleepy81]

Quick update: still no change with v1.2.3

[Pils]

We are all convinced this is an Laminar crash, and there’s nothing in the data provided for the developer to investigate, so I’m not sure what else we can do, unfortunately.

[Pils]

One possible issue I can see, not that I’ve seen this cause the crash you’ve seen specifically, is the VRAM heap allocated to X-Plane is being exhausted. If you’re running Maximum texture quality then then it down to High.

[Sleepy81]

Yeah, this is really strange. I asked Laminar some follow up questions with regard to I Sasos90 was referring to Librain, and if I was correct in assuming they have no insight into that. 
 

This is what they answered:

“ That was the developers guess, that the problem is with Sasos 90. I believe you're correct there, it's part of the plugin/library you mention. That's also correct, exact details of what's causing the issue isn't apparent on Backtrace/ and or we don't have access to the code.”

So they are saying they have been in contact with Hotstart developers, and they where the ones thinking it might be Librain/Sasos related. Did any of the developers here talk to them about this?

 

I’ll try and lower texture quality (if I remember correctly it’s set to High, but I’ll try lower just to test.), but I do have a 3080TI with 12GB VRAM. As it CTD on a clean install of x-plane, I don’t think that could be the reason?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Sleepy81

[Pils]

2 hours ago, Sleepy81 said:

So they are saying they have been in contact with Hotstart developers

No, I think “developers” in this context are the X-Plane developers; the response is being written from the point of view of the technical support person. They still provide no actual reason to think it’s Hot Start’s code, they just don’t want to deal with their own bugs. Plus Librain is not part of the addon at this time.

[Sleepy81]

That makes sense. I understand that there is no indication of the CL650 causing the CTD in the logs, but still this is the only aircraft this is happening with, and it’s 100% reproducible on my computer, i.e. it happens every time.  
So either the CL650 is causing x-plane to crash due to a bug in the CL650 code, or the CL650 is triggering some x-plane bug.

Tried to lower texture resolution to see if it was a VRAM issue. In fact I lowered everything to minimum, and still the same issue. 
 

I’m at a loss as to what to try next… I have tried everything I can think of, and it’s always the same problem. 

[Pils]

25 minutes ago, Sleepy81 said:

I’m at a loss as to what to try next… I have tried everything I can think of, and it’s always the same problem. 

I know it’s not ideal, but can you still fly not in VR without crashes?

[Sleepy81]

Yes, it works perfectly fine in “pancake” mode! Good framerates with all plugins and custom scenery. So that works fine! Problem is, once you’ve gone VR, especially on a late model headset with excellent FOV and good resolution, you never want to play on a screen again. When you fly in VR, you feel like a pilot in the cockpit. When I fly on a screen I feel like a I’m playing on a computer at home.  That’s why I really want to get this working in VR…

[Pils]

19 minutes ago, Sleepy81 said:

That’s why I really want to get this working in VR…

I hope the community can help. I’ve put out a call on our Discord also.

[Sleepy81]

Thank you! 

[severniae]

@Sleepy81

I had a Pimax8KX - it worked fine with the CL650.

Are you starting Xplane with VR already enabled, or are you clicking career / non persistent and then loading VR. Note, with the CL650 you must enable VR AFTER using this menu. Best method is to bind a keyboard or joystick button to enable/disable VR. Load it up after you leave the FBO...

What are your SteamVR settings? Have you tried a clean re-install of it?

Do you have parallel projections enabled (you need to)

What are you xplane settings?

Are you using Large, Normal, Small etc... FoV?

What have you got set supersampling-wise?

There is another setting, I don't recall the name, that sets between (IIRC) 0.5 and 2x - it's some form if rendering option in PiTool... what have you got it set to?

Are you using native or upscaling in PiTool?

Any settings configured in nvidia inspector or otherwise that affect settings...?

Edited February 5, 2022 by severniae

[Sleepy81]

I figured it out!

So, Apparently there is an x-plane bug that affects me. I cannot re-enter VR in X-plane after having been in VR during the same session. So, If I go from 3D -> 2D ->3D , then I get a CTD 100% of the time, regardless of which aircraft I use, or when I enter VR the second time. So, I've been starting up X-plane in VR from the get go, as this has worked on all other aircraft, and just stayed in VR the entire time. With the CL650, I tried to start using 2D mode, but for whatever reason it always tries to start X-plane in VR mode (initializing VR) on the first load screen, even when selecting 2d mode from the Steam Launch options. Even if my googles where powered off, and it failed to enter VR, and defaulted to 2d, it apparently "burned" my one shot of getting into VR for that session. So when I tried to enter VR after having entered the CL650 cockpit, it CTDed. 

So, then I figured I hade to double check everything, and really make sure x-plane did not try and initialize VR until I was in the cockpit.

So, this is what I did:

1. Enter X-plane, ensure VR is off in the settings. 

2. Quit Xplane.

3. Quit Steam just to make sure that any part of SteamVR services are not "lingering" in the system.

4. Start X-plane from the .exe file

5. X-plane now starts in 2d mode, and does not try and initialize VR.

6. Get in the CL650 cockpit in 2d mode.

7. Enable VR mode from the settings menu, and presto, CL650 in glorious 3d VR!

Thanks to all that have helped, and hopefully this post might help others who might have the same issue! 

 

Now, I just need to remember to turn off VR mode in X-plane settings each time I quit to avoid having to do points 1. and 2. above every time I want to fly the CL650.   And I hope HotStart can make the entire experience compatible with VR, (FBO/Career/Non-persistent selection menu etc. etc.) compatible with VR so I can stay in VR from the start, and never needing to be in 2d mode.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Sleepy81

[severniae]

52 minutes ago, Sleepy81 said:

I figured it out!

So, Apparently there is an x-plane bug that affects me. I cannot re-enter VR in X-plane after having been in VR during the same session. So, If I go from 3D -> 2D ->3D , then I get a CTD 100% of the time, regardless of which aircraft I use, or when I enter VR the second time. So, I've been starting up X-plane in VR from the get go, as this has worked on all other aircraft, and just stayed in VR the entire time. With the CL650, I tried to start using 2D mode, but for whatever reason it always tries to start X-plane in VR mode (initializing VR) on the first load screen, even when selecting 2d mode from the Steam Launch options. Even if my googles where powered off, and it failed to enter VR, and defaulted to 2d, it apparently "burned" my one shot of getting into VR for that session. So when I tried to enter VR after having entered the CL650 cockpit, it CTDed. 

So, then I figured I hade to double check everything, and really make sure x-plane did not try and initialize VR until I was in the cockpit.

So, this is what I did:

1. Enter X-plane, ensure VR is off in the settings. 

2. Quit Xplane.

3. Quit Steam just to make sure that any part of SteamVR services are not "lingering" in the system.

4. Start X-plane from the .exe file

5. X-plane now starts in 2d mode, and does not try and initialize VR.

6. Get in the CL650 cockpit in 2d mode.

7. Enable VR mode from the settings menu, and presto, CL650 in glorious 3d VR!

Thanks to all that have helped, and hopefully this post might help others who might have the same issue! 

 

Now, I just need to remember to turn off VR mode in X-plane settings each time I quit to avoid having to do points 1. and 2. above every time I want to fly the CL650.   And I hope HotStart can make the entire experience compatible with VR, (FBO/Career/Non-persistent selection menu etc. etc.) compatible with VR so I can stay in VR from the start, and never needing to be in 2d mode.

 

Glad to hear you have it working. A few points:

The reason xplane crashes with switching between 2d and VR is due to it running out of VRAM and crashing. The 8KX has a monstrous resolution so if you have any kind of super sampling at all, on a 3080 you will burn through VRAM in no time. I have a 3090 and even that can hardly handle the 8KX.. It'll be worth double checking all of your settings. I would suggest that you set the resolution percentage within steamVR to under 100% - and make sure you only use FXAA - no SSAA at all.

I have developed a little workflow that seems to go quite well for the CL650 - I use a Valve Index now, but it's pretty much the same... You will need the latest version of MoveVR

1 Bind toggle VR to the keyboard ( I use 'v') - and in the settings leave VR disabled.

2 Load up xplane and the CL650 - do what you need to do in the FBO. Set the passengers to arrive in one or two minutes.

3 I have set commands to view the status of FBO actions, and to advance the passenger status to the next stage. (Ctrl-F and ctrl-P respectively)

4 Once loaded into the sim, press the pax advance key - and wait for the phone to ring. Answer it, tell them to send the passengers now.

5. Once you have cleared the dialogue boxes, you are free to enter VR. 

6. When the fueller asks you to specify how much fuel you need, you may get a blue empty box appear - open up MoveVR (again, I have this bound to a key command) and open up the plugin menus, the last one in the list will be the fueller options. Click 'move to 2d'.

7. You can then use show desktop in steam VR, or lift your headset and interact with the fueller using the menu on the screen. 

8. Repeat that step if he asks you for anything else. (Alternate: use the 2d fuel menu to fuel the aircraft skipping the fueller stuff)

9. Enjoy your flight! Once you land, and you are done, press your toggle VR button ('v') and then interact with the FBO to pick up the passengers.

 

It probably sounds a bit long-winded, but it works for me every time and I've not had any big issues. Hopefully Toto will soon fix the menus so we can interact with them in VR, then the whole thing will be easy!

[Sleepy81]

Thanks for the pointers. I run no SS and no SSAA, so basically the default full resolution of the 8kx is being rendered. I have also tried to run the sim with every setting sett to minimum or off, and it still CTDs when entering VR the second time. So it seems strange that it should then eat up 12GB if VRAM. But maybe x-plane does not “release” the VRAM correctly when exiting VR, and it just filles up on the next entry into VR? 
 

Anyways, it’s working fine now. Nice 30+fps even with ortho and Global Traffic, so I’m happy that at least there is a walk around that works for me now. 

[severniae]

2 hours ago, Sleepy81 said:

Thanks for the pointers. I run no SS and no SSAA, so basically the default full resolution of the 8kx is being rendered. I have also tried to run the sim with every setting sett to minimum or off, and it still CTDs when entering VR the second time. So it seems strange that it should then eat up 12GB if VRAM. But maybe x-plane does not “release” the VRAM correctly when exiting VR, and it just filles up on the next entry into VR? 
 

Anyways, it’s working fine now. Nice 30+fps even with ortho and Global Traffic, so I’m happy that at least there is a walk around that works for me now. 

Try disabling VR, then close down and restart steam VR.

Yes I suspect there is a memory leak or similar when entering/exiting VR. I really hope it has received some attention in XP12.