FSX AND PMDG versus the best of Xplane

[Simmo W]

Oh dear, the might get some responses! I'm only observing..

I just bought a new GPU, a bargain GTX560 OC Ti, as fast as a 570 but only $259. mainly got it to max out A-10C and do me for the first yr of XP10.

Haven't installed it yet, so was looking at recent YouTube vids of FSXers and their new PCs to see the likely improvements.

One thing really struck me. Even with their latest i7s and cutting edge GPUs, most still struggle to run a PMDG level plane like the CRJ is, often exhibiting horrible stutters or FPS issues.

Also, is it me, or are these PMDG panels pseudo 3d, they look very 2d in parts?

I haven't heard the Fsbreak podcast for ages, their FSX dominance has grated on me. I think Cameron needs to pay them a virtual visit and show them what they're missing! The CRJ and other leading planes seem to be so much more real and immersive than these supposed industry leaders. Ok our scenery might not be as detailed, but with orthophoto scenery it's pretty convincing.

Some recent vids I found. Really, by now you would think that our amazing new cards would eat up fsx and PMDG. Not quite yet! :

Pretty, but sttutttuttuuuuttery...

This guy is so scared of fps loss/stuttering, he daren't move his view!

This plane looks like it's on rails, oh and see how he keeps rotating the camera to....avoid....the....stu...tters!

Very nice flight, but this cabin looks almost 2D. Plus he chugs at the end on approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBjn6J9xItw

[Kesomir]

Its more CPU than GPU in FSX and it was released right at the point that we went multi core, it's ancient now really.

My rig runs both sims fine as long as I don't push the settings to high in either, although I prefer x-plane for the flight characteristics and FSX for the eyecandy and mature addon market.

If OrbX was for x-plane, then wow.

FSBreak do report on x-plane and the CRJ has been covered several times now - it's really one of the three main contributors though - the other two run a video training company that's fsx oriented.

PMDG system simulation still has the edge on anything we have in x-plane (they've been doing it longer), but x-plane's aircraft handling is much better than FSX's - hand flying some FSX top end payware can feel very wrong (MD-11, AirbusX). Cockpits can look much better in x-plane and I prefer the 3d there.

Here's to more decent simulations coming for x-plane (and for the last few issues to be ironed out on the crj).

Roll on X-Plane 10, Flight and Aerosoft Flight Sim 2012

[signmanbob]

Something that I have recently found that I am loving about X-Plane and I haven't heard anyone point out before, is the way it is built.  When you install an aircraft or a scenery, you just put the folder in a directory and go.

This seems to make the actual simulator separate from the addons, and if you have to reinstall X-Plane to correct a problem, you don't have to re-install all of your addons.

With FSX, if you re-install the simulator over top of your existing install, it will severely corrupt all of your payware addons.

Also X-Plane keeps system logs that tell you what the problem is, if you have one.

X-Plane started crashing on me all of a sudden, when it was loading up.  I checked the log and found out it was because I installed XPushback.  I simply removed XPushback and everything worked perfectly.

I haven't found anything like that in FSX.

[Simmo W]

Thanks for your perspective Kesomir. Yes, msfs is looking dated, if not for Orbx it wouldnt be as popular. I used to love fsbreak, but with Nick and Chris dominating, it's just not the same. Bring back Mark!

[LA]

PMDG system simulation still has the edge on anything we have in x-plane (they've been doing it longer), but x-plane's aircraft handling is much better than FSX's - hand flying some FSX top end payware can feel very wrong (MD-11, AirbusX). Cockpits can look much better in x-plane and I prefer the 3d there.

Since this is........FSX versus the best of X-Plane, and I didn't start the subject.....

My overall "best" flight experience for GA and smaller military still goes to FSX. I rarely sim fly the heavier commercial aircraft. It's just that running some of my favorite 3rd party FSX aircraft, just feel right, act right,  as well as comfortable,...... after flying my full size RV.

I sure do like some of the new 3D panels for X-Plane.

LA

[cyranosemuse]

LA, What are these favorites of yours to fly in FSX?

[dpny]

Guy in the last video is so busy pressing buttons he doesn't notice he's about 30 knots overspeed. Sometimes you need to stop messing with systems and just fly.

That said, the cockpit looks like photo textures and 2D instruments layered on 3D, which makes sense when you consider that FSX was released in 2006. Also explains the terrible reflections.

[simbabeat]

I am a total x-plane geek and I'm sure I will say my part about that later in the evolution in the topic... Maybe...

But here is actually a pretty nice video of the pmdg 747-8i:

It seems to have an interactive second officer.

And you gotta admit, we aren't to this level yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfLEWlDhGcY

[Simmo W]

Simbabeat, I knew I shouldn't have made comparisons! They're very good though. Fantastic after 5 yrs of development!

The clouds were the best thing about the first. I'm actually looking forward to the weather/cloud engine in XP10 more than anything, I think it's going to be something special.

[MatthewS]

Simbabeat, I knew I shouldn't have made comparisons! They're very good though. Fantastic after 5 yrs of development!

That 2nd officer in the 747-800i is an addon.

The PMDG 737NGX will raise the bar yet again... don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/337162-customize-your-pmdg-737ngx/

I very much doubt AFS2012 will be ever be released, they have not even started development.  Flight supposedly is being rewritten with performance and multi core support in mind.  Looking forward to XP10 too.

[Goran_M]

The PMDG 737NGX will raise the bar yet again... don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

Yes it will.

[tkyler]

don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

That's a pretty lame statement....using the word "ever".    There was nothing in that video that can't be done in x-plane technically, or even right now.    I assure you XP will have comparable products in time, I've seen them.  The ixeg guys easily match if not exceed the PMDG 3D judging from the screenshots, but will remain to be seen if they can get the systems and sounds done.  I have no doubt that someone will.  X-Plane market is still in its adolescence relative to FSX don't forget...and from what I've seen, we're dealing with one talented adolescent.

PMDG benefits from a well known marketing trait...and that is brand identity from being "the first", the first to provide a serious system simulation.  Other companies could provide superior products yet most will still see PMDG as the pinnacle because the were the pinnacle first.   Don't get me wrong, PMDG accolades are well deserved and they will always produce top work.....I'm simply reiterating that others will too for x-plane.  If you ask me...I think PMDG is already a little behind artistically.  PMDG on the left, ixeg guys work on the right.  Those killer first shots from PMDG on their NGX were renders, not in-sim shots...now that you see it "in sim", it's not quite so rich looking.  At least the ixeg guys claim their screenshot is insim...and knowing Morten the way I do, he wouldn't lie when asked about such things.

[Simmo W]

Tom, you summed up my observations re. the quality of the 3d rendering, it just doesn't match the latest xplane stuff. I'm sure the systems are complex as I've heard they are, but it's nice for us to be able to start comparing closely. They used to excuse the PMDG fps issues due to deep systems, now they don't have that excuse compared to Xp.

You can never say never/ever, can you? Especially with xplane and its talented gurus :-)

[MatthewS]

The PMDG 737NGX will raise the bar yet again... don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

Yes it will.

I'm talking about the systems modelling not the graphics (The PMDG graphics are still excellent, check out the 1080p video).

If PMDG decides to port to XP maybe, but they don't seem to be interested.  

Yes XP has a lot of great 3D modellers/programmers but PMDG have spent about 4 man years on the systems development, its meant to match the NGX systems precisely.

[MatthewS]

don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

That's a pretty lame statement....using the word "ever".    There was nothing in that video that can't be done in x-plane technically, or even right now.    I assure you XP will have comparable products in time, I've seen them.  

We've heard this many times.  But as far as systems go don't think there's anything (existing or in the pipeline) for XP to compare with the PMDG NGX (or for that matter the PMDG 747-400/800 or MD11).

Also... Flight is on the horizon now.  This is another competitor for XP10, and I think PMDG (et al) are more likely to move to Flight rather than XP10.

[LA]

LA, What are these favorites of yours to fly in FSX?

Mostly products from RealAir Simulations. A favorite that I like, is the RealAir Marchetti SF260. It's a bit different than my Van's RV6A, but fly's much like it. I have time in a "full size" Marchetti. The default Van's airplanes in X-Plane 9 are somewhat of a disaster. Thank heavens for Tom's Falco to make up for them!  ;D  Now.............if I could just find the Gizmo password to re-activate it...

LA

[ChrisVon]

Larry, out of curiosity, are you on Microsoft's payroll? I ask because it almost seems that most of the only times you respond are when someone makes the DASTERDLY comment that they prefer X-Plane over MSFS. Given that this is an X-Plane dedicated board, why do you feel the need to run to MSFS's rescue when an X-Plane user says that they prefer the X-Plane. Do you or Microsoft feel THAT threatened? And please don't remind everybody about your "real life" experience and your "real airplane". You've been ramming these facts down so much in practically every post you make, that it makes me wonder whether or not their true. It's as if you go out of your way to let us know. You remind me of the guy who catches a fish in a small gully. After a few tellings, the fish grows to astronomical proportions in the middle of the Atlantic.

So what if someone prefers to use ONE simulator instead of both? There's nothing wrong with that either. I personally don't understand how a real world pilot can think that X-Plane isn't better than MSFS. But I could care less what they think). And I certainly WONT be going into an MSFS forum trying to convince people why my experiences with X-Plane are better than their's. Nor do I ACTUALLY START A TOPIC (which was taken down here when the "rant" forum was taken down) trying to express my disbelief in why people think that the simulator that they have such a strong belief in, is misplaced compared to mine (which you DID do Larry, over here.) It's little wonder why you've had such bad experiences over at the .ORG.

THis might come off as a personal attack, and I guess it is, but anyone can confirm this if they want (except for his posts in the rant section, since as I said, was taken down.)

PMDG system simulation still has the edge on anything we have in x-plane (they've been doing it longer), but x-plane's aircraft handling is much better than FSX's - hand flying some FSX top end payware can feel very wrong (MD-11, AirbusX). Cockpits can look much better in x-plane and I prefer the 3d there.

Since this is........FSX versus the best of X-Plane, and I didn't start the subject.....

My overall "best" flight experience for GA and smaller military still goes to FSX. I rarely sim fly the heavier commercial aircraft. It's just that running some of my favorite 3rd party FSX aircraft, just feel right, act right,  as well as comfortable,...... after flying my full size RV.

I sure do like some of the new 3D panels for X-Plane.

LA

[LA]

Larry, out of curiosity, are you on Microsoft's payroll? I ask because it almost seems that most of the only times you respond are when someone makes the DASTERDLY comment that they prefer X-Plane over MSFS. Given that this is an X-Plane dedicated board, why do you feel the need to run to MSFS's rescue when an X-Plane user says that they prefer the X-Plane. Do you or Microsoft feel THAT threatened? And please don't remind everybody about your "real life" experience and your "real airplane". You've been ramming these facts down so much in practically every post you make, that it makes me wonder whether or not their true. It's as if you go out of your way to let us know. You remind me of the guy who catches a fish in a small gully. After a few tellings, the fish grows to astronomical proportions in the middle of the Atlantic.

THis might come off as a personal attack, and I guess it is, but anyone can confirm this if they want (except for his posts in the rant section, since as I said, was taken down.)

So sorry you're offended, but tough....

I'm moderated at the org, because I disagreed with the owner regarding the virtues of the RealAir Spit versus the X-Plane P-51. The org is pretty much a stage for those who want to claim X-Plane flight dynamic superiority over those of Microsoft. If X-Plane developers really want to sell more products to Microsoft  simmer/pliots...........then get off your high horse and realize that X-Plane is really not superior. Just because Austin proclaims it is, it isn't so. I've remained somewhat neutral on this subject for the last two years. But thanks to a new barrage of superior X-Plane flight dynamics versus that crappy MSFS stuff, I've changed my mind.

So what's the topic here? It's FSX versus X-Plane. Is this forum going to be just like the org, in which I'm moderated, and will never say anything against the majority? At least I've mellowed. Years ago, I thought X-Plane was crap. It's come along way. I own a number of X-Plane products. Bought and paid for.

LA

[LA]

I personally don't understand how a real world pilot can think that X-Plane isn't better than MSFS.

No offense, but there were a lot of us real world pilots............who beta tested MSFS. Yep, it's well known that I beta tested for Microsoft. They asked, because we were who we were. No payroll though. Have tested for numerous 3rd party's also. Bunch of other real world pilots have too! However, there are still plenty of real world pilots who haven't jumped to X-Plane, yet. They may with version 10, who knows. In reality, the majority of real world pilots don't use desktop sims. I know, because I take surveys.

LA

[Simmo W]

Gents, please keep this discussion open and civil. I respect LAs experience and viewpoints as much as anyone's. I too don't want this BBQ to be ultra xplane biased.

I've heard a few real world pilots say they like fsx too, & am interested in the reasons why.

Seriously,PMDG go over to MSFLIGHT???? haha, only if the next Boeing uses embedded Kinect controllers. Just don't sneeze at flare!

[cyranosemuse]

I have been reading Larry's posts here, at the .org and elsewhere in other forums MSFS related and those for sim flight in general.

I appreciate what I feel are his balanced contributions to discussions. His statements qualifying himself as a real world pilot add context to his observations. I don't percieve anything wrong with that in itself or his presentation.

I am returning from a long hiatus from flight simming which began in 1986 and broke off with MSFS 98 and Falcon 4.

Anyone here an Air Warrior veteran on GEnie playing at $10 an hour on a 24 baud dial-up connection?

I recently purchased XP-9, FSX and Rise of Flight. They all are great values for the money considering the engineering that went into them and the enjoyment they provide. I was disappointed when I discovered I couldn't fly XP-9 on my laptop because of an incompatibility issue with Intel graphics boards. What's with that? Never seen that before, ever. I ended up downloading and flying the XP-8.6 demo which for some reason worked fine on the same laptop. FSX worked fine on the Intel card.

I recently got an I7 processor laptop. Finally I could use my XP-9. FSX and ROF run pretty smooth on it too.

I am holding off on getting into the $ addon collection phase until I see what happens with XP10 and Flight.

I will probably buy them both.  My preference is for GA, bi-planes, VRF low altitude flying. Just now experimenting with Helicopter flying now that I have a Saitek X52 Pro joystick with combat pedals arriving this week.  I could care less about Heavies and VA.

Thanks to all who make this community a place to feel good to be apart of.

Eagerly awaitng what Austin his crew have been cooking up.

[Simmo W]

Hear, hear Cyrano'!

I too am enjoying the resurgence of simming. Rise of Flight has amazing night effects too. Pity I find the planes too slow ;D

Wings of Prey runs fantastic too. Pity I find the planes too arcadey >

I see the Arma crew are doing a great looking new helo sim, you should like that - If they improve their Arma flight model by 100 billion percent! Arma is an amazing looking game, but ugh, the flight model...

For all our sakes, I hope Steve Jobs fails at his very effective attempts at trying to kill off the pc/desktop. For years I floundered in console land, never seeing a sim that satisfied.

[Mikkel]

Flight vs. XP10: That is speculative

Regarding system complexity in very complex aircraft like the MD11 (for instance), we still haven't seen anything at that level. I'm sure it will come, and we don't know enough about IXEG to comment on whether they'll reach that level or not, but they will likely close the gap significantly. The CRJ200 is most likely to evolve further and become even closer to reality than at its current state. So very exciting for X-Planers!

The graphics on the PMDG J41 (isn't that the name?) is very nice, but as far as I can tell not nicer than Javier et.al's CRJ200. Both are master-pieces if you ask me.

In general I think X-Plane developers in this forum and a few others at the org beat PMDG and other FSX-developers quite a bit on art-quality.

That's my black and white input on a topic that is quite a bit grey 

[oregonboy109]

don't think XP will ever have anything to compare to it!

That's a pretty lame statement....using the word "ever".    There was nothing in that video that can't be done in x-plane technically, or even right now.    I assure you XP will have comparable products in time, I've seen them.  The ixeg guys easily match if not exceed the PMDG 3D judging from the screenshots, but will remain to be seen if they can get the systems and sounds done.  I have no doubt that someone will.  X-Plane market is still in its adolescence relative to FSX don't forget...and from what I've seen, we're dealing with one talented adolescent.

PMDG benefits from a well known marketing trait...and that is brand identity from being "the first", the first to provide a serious system simulation.  Other companies could provide superior products yet most will still see PMDG as the pinnacle because the were the pinnacle first.   Don't get me wrong, PMDG accolades are well deserved and they will always produce top work.....I'm simply reiterating that others will too for x-plane.  If you ask me...I think PMDG is already a little behind artistically.  PMDG on the left, ixeg guys work on the right.   Those killer first shots from PMDG on their NGX were renders, not in-sim shots...now that you see it "in sim", it's not quite so rich looking.  At least the ixeg guys claim their screenshot is insim...and knowing Morten the way I do, he wouldn't lie when asked about such things.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but whats ixeg?

[Goran_M]

http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php?topic=1155.0