Refund?

[Steve Carlson]

Hey guys, I just purchased the TBM 900 and was unaware that the ILS was not working with current AIRACS, which is really a needed function. I also see that there's a lot of hostility regarding this from the developer. I'm also reading that this has been a known issue with a known fix for some time (as it only appears to be a syntax issue) and there has been no hotfix supplied from the developer. Considering this is like purchasing a car without working headlights... I'd rather not own software that takes this long for the developers to update if at all. $65 is not a small sum for a GA aircraft.

Thanks

[Goran_M]

I'm going to address your comments 1 at a time.

1 hour ago, Steve Carlson said:

I just purchased the TBM 900 and was unaware that the ILS was not working with current AIRACS, which is really a needed function.

Agreed.  Which is why it has been fixed and a release is coming shortly.  (There are other things to fix besides the ILS).

1 hour ago, Steve Carlson said:

I also see that there's a lot of hostility regarding this from the developer.

If you were asked the same question, over and over and over again, as well as answering it, as recently as this very post, about the ILS, responses will become shorter and more to the point.

1 hour ago, Steve Carlson said:

Considering this is like purchasing a car without working headlights

It is NOTHING like purchasing a car.  However, I will address your analogy.  I've had several things on my car fixed.  Sometimes having to wait for parts to come from Japan.  These are things such as the heater hose, which goes very brittle after less than a year.  The cost to replace, including labor?  $825.  Custom heater hose.  Every single one of our customers is getting a FREE update, that will fix something that another plugin broke.  We don't charge for broken "parts".
But I digress, I'll address your comment using actual software as an analogy.  Windows is full of bugs.  Yet people continue to buy it.  Other software has bugs.  Other add ons have bugs.  Do you expect flawless products?

 

Regarding your request for a refund...I'll point you to the X-Aviation terms and conditions.

Specifically, point 8.

 

8. PAYMENT DISPUTES

 

8.1. Downloadable, intangible software is non-refundable and you accept this when submitting your order. If you dispute a charge your account will be terminated and all purchases will be removed along with it. Your license(s) will no longer work, and your computer(s) associated to your account will be banned for life from use of any X-Aviation products."

 

Also...

https://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/refund_policy.php

 

Have a little bit of patience, and an update will be made available to you, as soon as it is READY.  We are not in the habit of releasing buggy updates, and considering the ILS function broke when a new version of Navigraph came out, I would ask you to question THEM, and why they released something that would break add ons, and force the developers to fix it.

There are several posts with instructions for a work-around, (sort of like re-wiring your car headlights to make them work, until a new set arrives).  

They are very simple steps, and should take you less than a minute or 2 to implement.

Have a great day.

(Trying to avoid sounding "hostile").

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Goran_M

[oldflyguy]

Hi @Steve Carlson and welcome!  The TBM has so much to offer besides the AOA indicator, the rain effect and the ILS function.  Use the time before the update to become familiar with this great model (and to practice your RNAV approaches...LOL!)  I have had this model since release and the dev team has been very good with updates.  This one is taking a bit longer I admit but I would rather they get it right.  I don't use VR but I'm supportive or those who do use it - I think some of the delay has to do with that function.  

[Steve Carlson]

No worries! I purchase everything on American Express for this reason. Cheap insurance for cases like this. Your product does ship with DRM and license keys can be revoked server side which will prevent reinstallation and update. 

As far as hostility goes... to a point I get it, however you aren't looking at this from a customer stand point. I work in public safety so I get the whole "stupid question" side as well as appealing to unreasonable people. The issue I have and have seen repeated by other customers is more from a standpoint of "why can't we have a hot fix for this small issue, then continue with the rest of the update." I think most of us have seen what is going on with regards to Vulkan and the windshield effects. It seems like just now Librain has been updated to work with Vulkan though there's still issues with it so I understand. That is what I believe to be the reason why most people are nervous and or irritated as it may be something that is going to take an extremely long time to fix. This issue with the ILS is not related to that. 

As far as my analogy goes I was simply trying to point out that driving a car at night is an essential function. While flyings its not always possible, realistic, or enjoyable to only fly in ideal weather. This is something that has come to be expected and working. For Pete sake this works in Carenado aircraft which have a checkered history as a developer. 

I get that there are delays. No I do not expect a flawless product. I will say though for what you are asking for the product, while considering the depth is worth the money... not 'over priced' in my opinion, you are in the leagues of 'premium products' which does carry some responsibility. This is something that should have been addressed months ago. While I don't work in the field I have 3/4 of a degree in computer science so I have an idea what is involved in programming such a complex aircraft. Syntax issue such as this... The rain effects on the other hand, my hats off to you if you pull it off. That is beyond my comprehension as far as programming goes. 

Simply put I'm not at all understanding why this sole issue, which is a rather large issue, wasn't fixed with a hot patch, even distributed on a forum... anything. 

I have seen the work around but I'm not going to run an outdated set of AIRAC files which is going to cause issue with flying online with other aircraft for the sole purpose of fixing a bug which has already been fixed but not released. More over I'm concerned about future updates and issues such as this arising with the product and the ability to keep it functional in the future. I'm sorry if that is rude, but I'm just being honest. 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, yet again to another thread about this. Trying to approach this with you rationally and civilly and I do appreciate the civil response. Hence conversation here with you instead of stomping my feet like an imbecile. 

Enjoy your day too! Thank you again for the time!

 

@oldflyguyThank you, I appreciate the issues that updates cause and I can live with the AOA indicator, rain effects, and various other issues. Hell as an example if I wasn't able to load approaches or arrivals and departures... I can work around that in the sim and still use the aircraft. This isn't a low level piston single. It's designed and bred for IFR and not being able to use ILS approaches (I even tried leaving it on GPS/FMS to see if I could fly the approach using that as lateral guidance but it keeps switching over to NAV1) is a breaking bug. I'm not using VR either and wouldn't have an issue if that was not working. I too would like them to "get it right." That said as I said above, I'm not understanding why this wasn't a posted hot fix in forums... etc. Many other ways this could have been handled.  

Last I'll say, I've said my peace, not here to argue or aggravate anyone. Just providing a perspective from a new customer who felt quite a bit left out with major post purchase regret. 

[Cameron]

21 minutes ago, Steve Carlson said:

No worries! I purchase everything on American Express for this reason. Cheap insurance for cases like this. Your product does ship with DRM and license keys can be revoked server side which will prevent reinstallation and update. 

That's not how this works (and as a person who has filed chargebacks on things with AMEX that failed). AMEX is cheap insurance for tangible items of value that may be damaged or stolen, but they are TOUGH on the consumer with these things that are more black and white, as much as I love them for the cards I have (trust me, I know having just gone through an $800 dispute for 7 months and many re-tries with something that was legitimately disputable). I still lost.

That said, they will simply allow us the opportunity to speak our side, and our posted refund policy is VERY clear: https://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/refund_policy.php

They do tend to adhere to Terms & Conditions of a sale from a vendor.

21 minutes ago, Steve Carlson said:

The issue I have and have seen repeated by other customers is more from a standpoint of "why can't we have a hot fix for this small issue, then continue with the rest of the update."

And that very question has been answered numerous times with detail.

21 minutes ago, Steve Carlson said:

That is what I believe to be the reason why most people are nervous and or irritated as it may be something that is going to take an extremely long time to fix. This issue with the ILS is not related to that. 

It is related to that if you take the time to read previous replies regarding why the update could not be separated as a hot fix.

 

21 minutes ago, Steve Carlson said:

I have seen the work around but I'm not going to run an outdated set of AIRAC files which is going to cause issue with flying online with other aircraft for the sole purpose of fixing a bug which has already been fixed but not released.

I don't consider Navigraph outdated, and I am not aware of any aircraft being rendered useless by using the workarounds provided.

 

It would be one thing if this team were sitting around twiddling thumbs. Such is not the case, and as of now this situation is being blown way out of proportion, especially given the workarounds that exist; even for the current AIRAC cycle.

As this thread is just further convoluting the issue, I am now closing this one as well.