ILS approach wrong on Local Map

[mb339]

Go here ( http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=73598) and observe Local Map photos.

At the top right there is a "small square" with the information of the approach selected ILS.

 

KLAX ILS Rwy 24L radial 69

Why 69?

 

LFPO ILS Rwy 26 radial 60

Why 60?

 

LFPO ILS Rwy 06 radial 243

Why 243?

 

Other example in this my photo.

 

 

Airport is Catania Fontanarossa, italy

ILS selected is CTN, frequency 109.90, Rwy 08, radial 279.

Why 279???

In all world charts Catania Fontanarossa is: CTN 109.90, Rwy 08, radial 082, not 279!

http://www.uvairlines.com/admin/resources/charts/LICC.pdf

 

Why Xplane wrong all radial? 

[jettojig]

I'm fairly certain it is the radial from the navaid to your position, so if you were programming a VOR you could input that radial.

[mb339]

Ok, but all map charts report approach ILS correct with effective radial for approach.

Example, map charts Catania Fontanarossa report ILS Rwy 08, radial 082°, not 273!

Only x-plane report ILS random radials.

Is wrong, the x-plane Local Map ILS information "contrasts" with all map cards in the world.

Edited August 24, 2015 by mb339

[SwissCyul]

Where were you when you took this screenshot in x plane? 

[jettojig]

Ok, but all map charts report approach ILS correct with effective radial for approach.

Example, map charts Catania Fontanarossa report ILS Rwy 08, radial 082°, not 273!

Only x-plane report backcourse radials.

Is wrong, x-plane Local Map ILS information "contrasts" with all the cards in the world.

 

Yeah, its a quirk of X-Plane I think.

Really, we'd want ILS to give us the radial we want to fly on to follow down the localiser and glideslope, but X-Plane treats it like any other navaid, and instead gives us a radial to our current position in the sim. In this case, what the readings are actually telling you is that your aircraft is 273° and 21.9 nautical miles away from the navaid. 

 

DO NOT mistake the information in the local map as being the same as on a chart, as it is not, and serves a different purpose. This is correct for the way it has been implementated, though I agree giving the localiser radial would be more useful for an ILS. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by jiggyb2

[mb339]

I do not like this system. 

The local map is a convenient source of quick information.

Is correct that the VOR's show me the radial of my current location.

Correct.

But not the ILS!

When I click on ILS I want to see the REAL direction of glide path, independently of my current location.

 

Example.

I fly in VFR above unknown location.

I see on the horizon a airport with ILS radioassistance, but I do NOT have a map of that airport.

What I do?

I open the Local Map to read information.

But x-plane never indicates the ILS correct orientation!!

So ... the Local Map is useless.

Without the map chart is objetless utility. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by mb339

[AngeloM]

Open a bug report, it's the only way to have it possibly fixed.

[mmerelles]

 

Example.

I fly in VFR above unknown location.

I see on the horizon a airport with ILS radioassistance, but I do NOT have a map of that airport.

What I do?

I open the Local Map to read information.

But x-plane never indicates the ILS correct orientation!!

So ... the Local Map is useless.

Without the map chart is objetless utility. 

 

 

the localmap is just that, a map.

 

lets suppose the localmap shows you the ils radial, then what you do next? to make an ils approach you need a lot more information on real life. you need to know where specifically/fix to intercept the ils, the altitude, category, allowed minimums, the missed approach procedure, etc. etc. etc.

 

to make an ils approach you need the chart.

 

now lets suppose you do not care about learning a realistic ils approach procedure, then why do you need the radial? the radial will be always the runway orientation +/- 5 degree deviation maximum, so to intercept the ILS you just set yourself on a heading course to intercept the runway trajectory, once you pickup the ils signal you start following the ils localizer. This is not a VOR, it doesn't matter what radial you have set on the course (CRS). You are not performing a realistic ILS approach anyway.

 

just my opinion

 

edit: spelling

Edited August 24, 2015 by mmerelles

[JGregory]

Open a bug report, it's the only way to have it possibly fixed.

It's not a bug!  The map always shows the radial you are on with reference to the navaid.  It's by design.  To properly fly an ILS you need the chart anyway.  It makes no sense to have the map show the radial for the ILS.

[mb339]

So why all other simulators (FS2004, FSX, P3D) have the "local map" with precise ILS informations?

Even with the other simulators serve the map chart for the ILS approach!

But regardless of this, the local map of the other simulators show anyway ILS correct information.

Anyway

X-plane Why not?

 

My opinion, this function is absurd.

[JGregory]

But regardless of this, the local map of the other simulators show anyway ILS correct information.

X-plane Why not?

The information that X-Plane is displaying IS CORRECT.  It's just not what you want.  There's a difference

Edited August 24, 2015 by JGregory

[AngeloM]

It's not a bug!  The map always shows the radial you are on with reference to the navaid.  It's by design.  To properly fly an ILS you need the chart anyway.  It makes no sense to have the map show the radial for the ILS.

 

Haven't said that it's a bug, I suggest him to open a bug report... that wouldn't be the first time that LR would answer explaining why the 'issue' it's by design, and this is the reason I said 'possibly'.

Not being an English mother tongue sometime it is not easy to explain myself as clearer as I'd wish.

[JGregory]

Haven't said that it's a bug, I suggest him to open a bug report

You said... "Open a bug report, it's the only way to have it possibly fixed."  Suggesting that something be "fixed" insinuates that it is broken, or a "bug".  That is NOT the case in this situation.  

 

...that wouldn't be the first time that LR would answer explaining why the 'issue' it's by design, and this is the reason I said 'possibly'.

If you or he want simply want an "explanation", you can always e-mail one of the people at Laminar although I believe the explanation has already been outlined above.  My point is that if it is not a "bug", then you shouldn't file a bug report.

Edited August 24, 2015 by JGregory

[mb339]

JGregory, It's not a bug, but it is an unconventional ILS information.

 

 

 

The square report: LICC 08 ILS-cat-I CTN 109.90 radial 279°

This value is wrong.

Any map chart of any simulator reports: LICC 08 ILS-cat-I CTN 109.90 radial 082°

Only x-plane "randomize" the ILS radial information.

On maps the ILS radial must always be fixed!

Always.

If Catania ILS is radial 082°... x-plane has to show radial 082°.

And only 082°.

This is the correct mode to represent the ILS information on the map.

 

This is my opinion. 

[JGregory]

This is my opinion.

Exactly, it's your opinion, not an accurate description of the facts.  

 

When you click on a navaid it will show data related to that navaid (the radial and other data) with respect to the position of the aircraft your flying. That's how it was designed and there is nothing "random" about it.  You may not like it, but it is certainly not a bug, nor is it unconventional.  It's the same for ALL navaids on the local map.   

 

What you are "requesting" is for X-Plane to display the Approach Course for an ILS on the local map.  That would be considered something completely different and a "new" feature, which you can request from Laminar if you like.    

Edited August 25, 2015 by JGregory

[AngeloM]

I give up, as it seems I'm not able to explain my thought.

[mb339]

Exactly,  That would be considered something completely different and a "new" feature, which you can request from Laminar if you like.    

 

Exactly, I request from Laminar if possible add 1 button "show ILS approach radial" on the local map.

 

 

Or alternatively leave as before, and add a simple line in ILS red square:

 

 

 

I am sure that this function would be appreciated by all x-plane user.

Edited August 25, 2015 by mb339

[jettojig]

Probably second option would be a better design decision.

[mb339]

Probably second option would be a better design decision.

 

Second option is good before show 2 information:

1) ILS VOR radial respect to airplane position (on the top right square).

2) ILS localizer radial for approach on the runway (on the center red square).

With this simple additional information the Local Map is complete.

 

Currently the local map is incomplete. 

When I click on ILS, the localizer approaching indicator flashes red color.

 

 

If x-plane flashes red approaching localizer, the question is simple: "Why flashes red approaching localizer? And what is the true localizer radial"?

X-plane not show ever, show only radial respect airplane position.

This is illogical.

I suggest this solution for resolve problem.

 

Edited August 26, 2015 by mb339

[mmerelles]

 

If x-plane flashes red approaching localizer, the question is simple: "Why flashes red approaching localizer? And what is the true localizer radial"?

X-plane not show ever, show only radial respect airplane position.

This is illogical.

I suggest this solution for resolve problem.

 

this is not illogical at all to me.

 

this is a MAP, so the idea of the map is to provide you a reference from you current position to the navid you have chosen. You point the aircraft indicated heading and you will arrive. If you do not have the chart you enter the airport on a left or right pattern (if you know how a pattern works) and you intercept the ILS, you do not need to know the radial at all to perform a non realistic ils approach.

 

I understand you want to see the radial, but understand this is a simulator, and it is called a simulator for a reason. People that would like to train an ils a approach must have a chart.

 

just to my curiosity, why is vital for you to see the ils radial on the map? what provides you that information for a non-real approach?

[mb339]

And what is the sense to show VOR radial (and distance) respect my plane position? 

 

 

Is it realistic?

 

If i want to know the VOR radial (and distance) respect my plane location, i tune VOR frequency on NAV1 and move the course on the onboard instrument.

The radial I find with on-board instruments, I do not need "help" from Xplane.

 

If the local map showing these "facility information", why not include ILS course information? 

Is military top secret information? 

 

You mentioned simulators.

Even FS2004, FSX, P3D, are simulators.

And they too have virtual maps, with Vor, Ndb, ILS, obstacles, Low route, High route ...

Including ILS radial information.

 

 

I do not understand why x-plane does not have to display that information.

The local map is a map.

And a map is used to show much information.

Including ILS course.

A map without ILS course is an incomplete map. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by mb339

[mmerelles]

again this is a map and the purpose of the map it to show your aircraft against your selected navid. You if select the VOR it will show you the radial you should follow to reach the vor

 

if you choose an ils it will show the heading to reach there

 

if you choose an airport it will show you the heading to reach the airport.

 

The map on xplane is not a repository of procedures. Sorry you don't like it.

 

I am still curious what valuable information provides you the radial without the ils chart? Or, what you can not do by not having the ils radial there?

Edited August 27, 2015 by mmerelles

[tomcat357]

runway 34L

ILS 341 degrees

 

runway 180R

ILS 180 degrees

 

runway 05

ILS 50 degrees

 

I'm beginning to see a pattern here

[mmerelles]

runway 34L

ILS 341 degrees

 

runway 180R

ILS 180 degrees

 

runway 05

ILS 50 degrees

 

I'm beginning to see a pattern here

 

What you mean?

 

the ils radial will always be the same than the runway heading otherwise will not be aligned. It could differ +/-5 degree max. why?

 

the runway is not 05, the runway could be 046 to 055 and would be named 05. but the ils is a preccision instrument and will be tuned to the real runway orientation whatever it is 046 to 055.

 

it could not be smaller or bigger than that because 045 or lower will be named 04, or 056 or bigger will be named 06.

 

 

that is why knowing the radial is not important at all to just intercept an ils without a real life ils procedure. The aircraft will follow the ils radial no matter you know the radial or not. It is not a VOR that putting an incorrect course will lead following the incorrect trajectory.

 

 

Hope this clarifies, or maybe i missed your point then.

Edited August 27, 2015 by mmerelles

[tomcat357]

Yea, you missed my point....you guys have fun..