[SOLVED - See Reply 35] frame rates

[Mario Donick]

Landing and Taxi lights do not illuminate the track with HDR off

 

No, that's not true. Runways and taxiways are also illuminated without HDR, just as in X-Plane 9. Steering the plane is certainly possible.

[mirlo1]

No, that's not true. Runways and taxiways are also illuminated without HDR, just as in X-Plane 9. Steering the plane is certainly possible.

 

did not know that, do not use x plane 9 never! I have to go to my church to confession for this!

Edited September 27, 2013 by mirlo1

[frankbyte]

Hi everybody

 

I have the same huge fps-drop issue with an i7 4770k and GTX Titan 6GB, when having HDR on and i will try to find a good compromise in the settings. But i dont want to switch HDR to off, because that doesnt make sense to me.

 

Since it seems that Laminar still has to optimize the HDR-engine, can we hope that this HDR-iussue will be "fixed" in the future?

 

At the same time, i was asking myself what the exact reasons were. Is the Saab just using more HDR light-sources? I dont have any idea about it but until yet i only observed that the airports-scenerys had a big impact on the HDR (Aerosoft scenerys). But less the aircrafts itselves...

 

So, is there really no optimizing-potential from your point of view Cameron? If no, so we will have to accept it and wait ;-)

[Cameron]

There's no optimizing on our end. HDR is what it is, and as is overly clear, the Saab gains significant FPS with HDR off.

Hurry up and wait is the name of the game.

I don't know if it will ever be "fixed" but they will certainly further optimize. By nature, HDR is inherently a big performance hitter with or without the Saab due to more geometry being drawn multiple times. It's only now when you get such a beautifully detailed aircraft that you realize how little overhead is available to you as a user (normally seen by sceneries like you have already mentioned).

 

A good example showing the impact with just the CRJ rather than the Saab. Thanks to Ola.

[frankbyte]

OK since it seems to be a secret: apparently it depends on an old OpenGL-engine that has to be updated first by Laminar. It seems that during development of the Saab, this problem has been reported to Laminar. So: YES, in future, even our actual hardware should become a better use of it by X-Plane. So hoping won't just be a game but a reality i guess

 

Rectify me Cameron if i wrote something wrong. ..

Edited September 27, 2013 by frankbyte

[Mario Donick]

At least some OpenGL stuff is going on, as Ben Supnik pointed out in a comment in August 2013:

 

 

We could get all of the GL features we needed for X-Plane 10 using a mix of GL 1.x and 2.x. The parts of the sim that have to be fast are all shader based, but for example the UI still runs using GL 1.x fixed function rendering, and the sim uses 2.x uniforms (because it has for the last five years).

 

To use GL 3.x on Mac we have to drop 1.x, because Apple doesn’t support ARB_compatibility. We didn’t have time to do this before, but now I’m finally getting to some of the work of moving off of 1.x permanently. (This work also couldn’t happen during 9.x because v9 supports non-shader hw.)

 

 

(comment no. 52 at http://developer.x-plane.com/2013/08/rumors-of-my-death/#comments )

Edited September 27, 2013 by Mario Donick

[mirlo1]

As information do some tests with HDR on and while I kept my eyes straight in the cabin stable fps, turning left or right head fps drop dramatically , day and night

[frankbyte]

I made another observation by using HDR. Switching beetween 2xHDR and 4xHDR only drops the fps by 1 or 2 frames. Normally the fps drops about 10-15 frames. Strange, isn't it?

[Cameron]

Normally the fps drops about 10-15 frames. Strange, isn't it?

 

I think the issue here simply becomes one of fill rate, where you're pushing the limit so high against that limit that the difference between the two still pushes the card to its limit and thus the difference is negligible. 

 

It's similar to the effect of having a 4GB video card, installing 2GB of textures, then uninstalling the 2GB of textures and replacing them with 1GB worth of textures. Because you have so much overhead still available in this scenario, you will see no increase in FPS. The difference here is we're talking about geometry and how it's rendered in HDR.

[frankbyte]

OK, i can understand this. That was first also what i was thinking about.

[arb65912]

The topic is marked solved but apparently not for me.

 

After I fly pattern around LGA, I am getting the slide show, about 2-3 FPS.

 

I understand everything , complex aircraft  etc.

 

I have a great Graphic Card and fast computer , I have Resolution set to Very High, no HDR, default number of objects and roads, sparse trees.

 

With other aircraft  I get around 50 FPS.

 

I do not know what is going on but it has to be something related to SAAB, unfortunately.

 

If it was FPS around 30, I would not say a word but in this case, I had to reply.

Edited September 30, 2013 by arb65912

[Cameron]

Stop trying to compare it to other aircraft. Not even remotely the same.

[arb65912]

OK, if I do not compare it with anything, I still get the 2-3 FPS on a good computer with great GC and turned down settings.

 

I wish I did not have to say that but what I am supposed to do? That is why I am replying here.

[Cameron]

OK, if I do not compare it with anything, I still get the 2-3 FPS on a good computer with great GC and turned down settings.

I wish I did not have to say that but what I am supposed to do? That is why I am replying here.

I don't have an answer for you other than reply 49. This is a flight simulator with many variables at play, including a rendering engine. We are 1/10th the entire equation.

Sounds to me it hasn't consistently been 2-3fps for you. But, aside from what you already know how to do with setting adjustments, I have no further recommendation.

[arb65912]

Yes, I understand that SAAB is only a part of the equation.

 

It still puzzles me how is that possible that I have flown ( without knowing) with a very high rendering settings and I was having lots of fun and the only problem was the sound which I reported and Jim found a bug for it.

 

Then I changed settings to very low and started getting this unfamous 3-4  FPS.

 

I can only hope that I am not the only one experiencing that ( it is not that I want others to have problems of course) and others will reply here.

 

You said not to compare but there are also complex designs CRJ2 and JS32 but none of them is causing that.

 

The last option that I hate to think of is it one of these X-Plane mysteries that never get unsolved.

 

Well, thank you for reply anyway.

[arb65912]

Cameron,

 

I have one more question for you.

 

Since you do not have any recommendations for my problem (which exist only with SAAB, not other complex ones like JS32 , CRJ2, B777 )  can you at least point me in direction where I can get help?

 

I bought the product in good faith, it is not working for me, you do not have anything else to say to solve my problem.

 

Where do I ask?

 

I am not allowed to do it in .org forums obviously.

 

Please help, I want SAAB working but I do not know where to look for help if not here, in SAAB support forum.

[Cameron]

You're in the right spot for Saab support, and you know that. Please don't play games. You've had plenty of other posts/topics which have had replies to real, technical issues.

 

Your issue is computer specific. Somehow you've managed all this time to not have such an issue, and all of a sudden have it now. It's not some widespread thing, and the only thing I can recommend to you is to test, change, or even re-install X-Plane from a demo install and see where that leads you.

 

I'm afraid in this case you're the one who is going to have to help yourself, and I'm not going to argue it either.

[pryoski]

It sounds like it's PC specific to me too.

I don't know if it'll help, but disabling core parking helped me a little .. you can see my spec below and I rarely dip to the low 20's (only when @ a major airport .. I should add that it'd be an Australian airport; which seems to be faster than a Yankee airport ).

 

Also placing my virus checker into silent mode appears to have saved a few CPU cycles as well. I don't think the lag is related to how good people think their graphics cards are either ... X-Plane is CPU hungry, not GPU hungry and I even read on Tomshardware that too high a card specs can be detrimental as some of the newer graphics cards actually steal CPU cycles ... for tech specific info you'll have to search (I'm @ work .. lunch).

 

There's a fair bit of information about general systems optimization for Windows 7 on the Net .. I'd be looking at those for a source of inspiration.

 

It's not X-Plane .. but good learning experience nonetheless .. DCS tweaks

[arb65912]

@Cameron: where did you get the idea that I am playing any games?

I do have a problem but the problem is only with SAAB.

If it is my computer than why I do not have any FPS. Problem with any other aircraft.

I named Ramzess B777, Js32 and CRJ2.

In my understanding they are also complex and the most computer power demanding.

I can make screenshots showing corresponding FPS s.

Why are you accusing me of playing games while I am trying to get help and ask questions?

@Kris: Kris, thank you for suggestions but I am still not convinced it is my system.

Why Xacars run fine with all airplanes I have and why the complex ones do not cause FPS drop while SAAB does?

I have to assume that my problem is isolated because so far nobody reported what I have but I just do not understand why everything else works fine but SAAB?

I am sorry but I am not convinced.

I am not playing games, I only want my money spent being worth spent, that is all.

[Cameron]

@Cameron: where did you get the idea that I am playing any games?

 

This post is complete and utter sarcasm to which you know cannot be further assisted. Posting stuff like that when you KNOW the answer is a waste of time. You know exactly where to get Saab support, and I will not play that game.

 

I am entirely happy to help you (as is the other staff) on real technical issues, just like we have in every other thread or post of yours. But to continue to antagonize a situation where you have already been given an answer will not fly here.

 

We'll see you after you have a 15 day cooling down period. You were warned in your XACARS thread to stop with the antics, but you did not comply. Enough is enough. 

[arb65912]

Ridiculous. Bye!

[pryoski]

Ridiculous. Bye!

 

Woa! .. chill out man! You're wrong.

 

I've been involved with Tech Support long enough to know that despite what you say, the reality is that it IS most likely to be your PC that has a bottleneck some-where, and you're getting so upset that you're not willing to accept and explore that possibility! The SAAB is CPU intensive, there's probably much more that's happening under the hood than other sims/planes and it's totally unfair to do the comparisons with other aircraft .. that comes across as a misinformed user perspective!

 

First strategy for getting good tech support is to NOT tell the tech support guy he's wrong from the get go , and it's totally unrealistic to expect any optimisations on the SAAB straight away .. right this minute .. because all the guys have been working at it for so long to get it out the door, they need a break from it! C'mon, where's the heart?

 

In the mean time, it's now up to US (the users) to see what WE can do with regard to optimising OUR PC's .. and see if we can't all help each other enjoy this fabulous creation!

We need to be solution centric ... do a bit of research and see if possibilities don't pop up with a more positive frame of reference. That way everyone benefits.

 

Cheers,

Edited October 1, 2013 by Kris Pryo

[JGregory]

Kris,

 

Superb post, thanks!

[arb65912]

 

 

Woa! .. chill out man! You're wrong.

 

Hi Chris, I am back from what cameron called chilling out period. 

 

While I was banned I was still able to see the posts to some degree and you know NOW that my reports were not baseless, others have the same problems.

 

Are you still going to say I was wrong despite so many reports supporting mine?

 

I am looking forward to the update and hoping for positive.

 

As far as replying in these forums, I am not sure anymore how honest I can be and what I am allowed to say and what not.

 

I hope not to banned for saying that. It is not that I can not live without X-Aviation forums , it is just I feel honestly like a little boy being smacked on hand by doing something "wrong".

 

Cheers, AJ 

[sqrt(-1)]

Is there a framerate issue with the Saab?  Yes.  That was never in dispute.

 

However, please, point me to another post(s) where "so many reports" indicate single-digit "slideshows" as you have here.  It is one thing to have a large group reporting much lower than average framerates for a complex model and quite another for the situation you are talking about.  The large group is being addressed with the upcoming update.

 

I'm asking for the third time: please post screenshots (complete rendering settings dialog, X-Plane fps indication) and your log file.  Also, please indicate how much VRAM your GPU card has.

 

Then we'll have something substantive to discuss and possibly get you at least to the same point everyone else is at.

 

Let's start with a clean slate, shall we?

Edited October 16, 2013 by SqrtOfNegOne