"Linux is the future of gaming"

[MdMax]

X-Plane could be easy to install, just like on the Play Store or Apple Store for mobile devices. As long as it's on a separate website with very long pages to find and read, it will not become a popular app.

Linux advocates will not help here. They'll tell you to install only free software because their goal is freedom for the users, not sales.

Edited September 19, 2013 by MdMax

[pryoski]

Linux advocates will not help here. They'll tell you to install only free software because their goal is freedom for the users, not sales.

 

Then Linux Advocates are confused ... because GPL is not about free as in 'costs nothing' .. it's free as in the source code is open and when you buy/get the software, you also get the rights to change it to suit your needs (with certain specific caveat's depending on license) ... so it doesn't ignore sales per se.

 

There is another type of Linux Advocate ... such as your good self ... who both advocate Linux and are willing to use the non-free software ... these are the advocates who need to be the architects of the future they wish to see with regard to X-Plane. Every grand design has to begin from somewhere ... and the progress can be agonizingly slow! As for me, I identified a while ago that I was more interested in flying than tinkering with Linux ... and since making that decision, my stress levels have dropped and my hair grew back .

Edited September 19, 2013 by Kris Pryo

[MdMax]

"Free software" is about freedom, it's not a matter of price:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

This helps for software, this helps developers so they don't need to write every library and programming language from scratch, open licenses are also very useful for data, like data.x-plane.com or OpenStreetMap.

As a user, I can only help other users. But I can't modify X-Plane with the installer, nor the X-Plane Wiki, nor the way it's distributed. It's proprietary software.

When Laminar Research started to sell the mobile version for iOS and Android, they didn't just tell their user to download a package from x-plane.com. They submitted their work to Apple Store and Google Play, were the users are, and these users didn't need to read complicated pages.

Edited September 19, 2013 by MdMax

[Ben Russell]

It's completely irrelevant what the rest of the Linux experience is like, or what it could be like. 

 

 

We're talking about what it's like to support the Linux customer base, NOW.

 

We're talking about what it's like for an average dev looking to add support using a VM...  TODAY.

 

It's a complete pain in the ass.

 

 

...and I already know Linux really well.

[Ben Russell]

Back in January I had to hack X-Planes shaders down to something more digestible for the GL drivers inside VMWare.

 

This was done to support Windows.

 

While annoying, this was essential. Windows represents somewhere between 50 and 60% of the market.

 

 

I've now published these shaders to make it just a little easier for other plugin devs to support whichever OS selection they chose.

 

http://forums.x-pilot.com/topic/5714-xp-in-a-virtual-machine-replacement-shaders/

 

 

Having to hack at the shaders system just to start the sim in a VM is not exactly "easy", "simple" or "fun" for an average developer.

 

It's not impossible, but it's not the kind of thing your average "plugin enhanced aircraft" developer is going to be able to do.

[Ben Russell]

Looks like Laminar have killed off the ability to run in a VM without further mucking around:

 

Attemping to boot with replacement shaders in my Ubuntu VM results in this:

 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | Null texture - how?

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | ref=   352

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | (tman.cpp:235)

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

This error will affect my Windows test VM as well no doubt.

 

Very annoying.

I now require either multi-boot (NOT happening. Least productive setup ever.) or another Laptop... which not exactly cost effective.

 

 

Tedious. Time expensive. Hardware expensive. ... are you seeing my point yet?

[Mario Donick]

t shaders in my Ubuntu VM results in this:

 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | Null texture - how?

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | ref=   352

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | 

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: | (tman.cpp:235)

0:00:48.145 E/SYS: +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

If I remember correctly, this error message also occurs on Windows systems from time to time, and is then related to some video driver issues. I don't think this is Linux related.

 

 

 

On the general topic:

 

This very entertaining thread mixes up many different things and takes some examples for general:

 

 

1. Valve's opinion on Linux for the gaming market

 

2. The support or non-support X-Aviation has or has not for Linux.

 

3. Laminar's support for Linux.

 

4. The way how on particular Linux distributions software is found and installed (Software Center, Package managers ...)

 

 

 

Comments:

 

1. Valve has a special take on Linux, because they want Steam to be successful there, even if that requires them to develop their own console. For flight simulation in general, and X-Plane in particular, at the current date, their statement has no relevance.

 

2. If supporting Linux is not feasable for X-Aviation, because there are just a handful of Linux users who would buy X-A products, then this is totally understandable. It's not just about having a compiled Gizmo version. You have to test it on dozens of distributions. Linux is not restricted to Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distributions, so if you say "Linux support", you have to support all of them.

 

3. alpilotx' statement that between XP8 and XP9 Laminar has not removed XP support, because alpilotx is developing on Linux shows how bad the situation for Linux users really seems to be. Obviously even at Laminar, the continuation of Linux support was questioned a long time ago, and I doubt that it hasn't been or will not be questioned again since then.

 

4. MdMax wrote:

 

 

 Installing software on Linux is very very simple:

1) You go to the Software Center (or package manager)

2) You select the solftware you want to install

3) You click install

4) When there's an update, you get a notification or an automatic update.

 

(...)

 

I couldn't find X-Plane in my Software Center (nor X-Aviation add-ons). This is why most Linux users don't even know there's a Linux version for X-Plane.

 

Which Software Center should this be? Ubuntu's? Linux Mint's? Another distribution's?

 

In which software center should Laminar put a copy of X-Plane, so that a user of these distributions was able to find X-Plane by default (i.e. WITHOUT adding third-party-repositories)? Should they support only Ubuntu-based distributions? What about .rpm based distributions like Fedora?

 

And given you got XP via a Software Center or package manager: You are then very restricted on installing addons in the classic way (i.e. by simply moving them to the Aircraft or Custom Scenery folder), because you would then interfere with the package manager's database on installed products. Not good.

 

The only decent way of providing a Linux version for Laminar is exactly how they are doing it -- in the "put this folder anywhere you like"-way, because this gives users the most control.

 

But, and here I agree with what you later said, they really could improve the documentation on the install process, esp. on required libraries.

 

 

 

I am writing this post, by the way, from my Ubuntu machine which actually was a MacOS machine (Mac Mini) some weeks ago. So I'm quite pro-Linux. (Although one could say that Ubuntu is the Windows among the Linuxes...)

Edited September 19, 2013 by Mario Donick

[Ben Russell]

1. If Valve aren't making any headway with Steam as it is, how can we be expected to believe that there's any return to be made here?

 

Linux users argue that there is a large untapped market of Linux gamers that are just dying to buy our stuff as soon as it's out.

 

Marketplace evidences shows this is not true even if you have:

- A well established library of excellent AAA quality, internationally known titles.

(Titles people are very likely to be playing via some work around. (multi boot, vm, wine, whatever..))

- A huge advertising budget.

- A very healthy company with enough resources to burn on Linux that you'll create your own platform.

 

They have built the bridge, I am simply checking out the view.

 

 

 

2. Gizmo is being built and tested by me on Ubuntu 64bit LTS.

I'm currently using 12.04.

 

If it works for you, great.

If you're using Mint / ____ and it doesn't work, too bad.

 

The plugin is made available free of charge so it will be possible to test without purchasing a product.

[alpilotx]

3. alpilotx' statement that between XP8 and XP9 Laminar has not removed XP support, because alpilotx is developing on Linux shows how bad the situation for Linux users really seems to be. Obviously even at Laminar, the continuation of Linux support was questioned a long time ago, and I doubt that it hasn't been or will not be questioned again since then.

Yes, but this was not the only reason (they even told me to prepare and get myself a windows installation .... just in case). The Linux porting efforts helped them  a lot in the long run with their mobile porting .... so it payed off quite well (even if indirectly).

And by the way, the Linux porting was mostly done by an "external" guy ...

 

Oh, and just as another side note (yes, this is very very special and nothing which one could use for generalization ...) ... the kind of scenery work I do (with many open source tools, scripting etc.) fits really really well in the Linux environment (I think, many of the things might have been a bit more cumbersome on Windows).

[MdMax]

Which Software Center should this be? Ubuntu's? Linux Mint's? Another distribution's?

 

In which software center should Laminar put a copy of X-Plane, so that a user of these distributions was able to find X-Plane by default (i.e. WITHOUT adding third-party-repositories)? Should they support only Ubuntu-based distributions? What about .rpm based distributions like Fedora?

 

And given you got XP via a Software Center or package manager: You are then very restricted on installing addons in the classic way (i.e. by simply moving them to the Aircraft or Custom Scenery folder), because you would then interfere with the package manager's database on installed products. Not good.

 

The only decent way of providing a Linux version for Laminar is exactly how they are doing it -- in the "put this folder anywhere you like"-way, because this gives users the most control.

 

But, and here I agree with what you later said, they really could improve the documentation on the install process, esp. on required libraries.

 

 

 

I am writing this post, by the way, from my Ubuntu machine which actually was a MacOS machine (Mac Mini) some weeks ago. So I'm quite pro-Linux. (Although one could say that Ubuntu is the Windows among the Linuxes...)

 

This is a very good point Mario. What is Linux ? Of course it's not only Ubuntu. In my 1st answer to this thread about revenues, I was talking about the most popular Linux distro: "Android". For the desktop, Ubuntu and Mint (all from the Debian family) may be popular. But you can find several more very famous distributions, like OpenSuse, Fedora, etc...

 

I started in the 90's with Slackware 2.0. The 32-bit binaries I made for this operating system still work today with the latest Ubuntu. But packages are a point where it has to be improved and this is still not fixed in 2013. Diversity has many advantages, and for the end user it makes not really a difference if software has been installed using a .deb or a .rpm or a .tgz file. But for the developer, it's a time loss and

.

 

Do developers need to support every distribution ? NO. If a Linux user wants to use another distribution he just can, thanks to LSB. That makes it possible for a Fedora user to install Steam, although Steam is only supported with Ubuntu for now. If there's a problem he can't contact the support but, there's another option: he can still download the supported distribution for free. Fact is: to enjoy X-Plane, you don't need to give your hard earned money to companies like Microsoft or Apple which are hiding their revenues in tax havens, are making sure small companies have to pay more and more taxes, and are infringing competition rules every day.

 

Stores: Sorry I don't know what's in the Mint store or package manager. All I can say, the library names you need for X-Plane are the same everywhere in the Debian family. Can Mint users buy the same products in their store ? I don't know, but they can install the Ubuntu Software Center on their distribution. Here you can find the top 10 for the paid apps in this store:

http://developer.ubuntu.com/2013/08/top-10-ubuntu-app-downloads-for-july/

 

What did I need to do to install X-Plane ?

1) Install the Nvidia proprietary driver (about 3 clicks and 1 restart)

2) Install ia32-libs and libopenal1 (very easy with Synaptic or the Software Center)

3) Launch the X-Plane installer

(french speaking X-Plane users can find help here)

 

When the CRJ-200 was released, I installed a newer driver using the PPA from the Ubuntu-X team. The performance was much better. Today I'm using the 319.32 driver, recommended and installed by the Steam client.

 

I don't know if step 2 is still required today if you only want to use the 64-bit version of X-Plane. According posts I could read in forums, mounting the DVD X-Plane needs to remove the demo mode can be a pain with some distributions. I don't know it this is fixed now. If not, you can find command lines to do it manually. According to posts in forums, Ati OpenGL drivers for Linux are still b######t. In the Ati world and Linux, Only 3D desktop users are happy, not X-Plane users. But I'd be glad to read up to date reports from X-Plane Linux users using ATI/AMD GPUs. Is this true or a myth ?

Edited September 19, 2013 by MdMax

[MdMax]

2. Gizmo is being built and tested by me on Ubuntu 64bit LTS.

I'm currently using 12.04.

 

Your efforts are welcome ! I hope you'll not get into trouble. Cameron is really upset about the Linux sales.

[Ben Russell]

Gizmo is my product, I'm experimenting with the Linux build for my own amusement.

 

This does not mean that Cameron will choose to officially support Linux if / when Gizmo becomes available for Linux.

[pryoski]

Cameron is really upset about the Linux sales.

 

I don't get that impression at all ... don't you think he's more likely to be realistic about Linux sales?

[Ben Russell]

If all goes well the Linux port of Gizmo64 will be fully compatible with all payware offerings that depend on Gizm64.

 

The publisher (X-A in this instance) may not offer "official" Linux support but the plugin should be able to run the content.

[john82088]

Can someone tell me the biggest difference between Ubuntu and Mint? Am I assuming correctly that since Ben is working on the Gizmo for Ubuntu that is the best one?

[Ben Russell]

I use Ubuntu because it's "really easy" to install and it's based on a version of Linux I've been using for many years for server work.

 

There are probably faster/better options out there but this one is popular enough to find on Magazine DVD's in the super market / grocery store.

[Ntr09]

It's just the most common, there are hundreds of distros out there. Just find the one that's right for you. That happened to be Mint KDE for me.

I personally recommend Mint 15 MATE for folks who've used windows.

 

-NR

[pryoski]

Can someone tell me the biggest difference between Ubuntu and Mint? Am I assuming correctly that since Ben is working on the Gizmo for Ubuntu that is the best one?

 

Mint is a repackaging of current Ubuntu and alternatively, Debian.

 

The main Mint distro (the Ubuntu version) comes with Mint's own environment options .. Cinnamon and/or Mate; which I believe are forks from Gnome2 ... a response to dissatisfaction with where Gnome 3 and Unity ( for Ubuntu) was headed.

 

You can currently get the main Ubuntu based Mint in KDE, XFCE or standard (Cinnamon/Mate) configurations.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Kris Pryo

[alpilotx]

And to add to the big zoo: I am on OpenSUSE since 7-8-9 years (and all the time run X-Plane on it: XP8/XP9/XP10) ...

[john82088]

Thank you for the info.

John

[MarRog]

If all goes well the Linux port of Gizmo64 will be fully compatible with all payware offerings that depend on Gizm64.

 

The publisher (X-A in this instance) may not offer "official" Linux support but the plugin should be able to run the content.

 

Great, that's the spirit!

 

 

Forum community support, just like for X-Plane Linux itself? Most Linux users will gladly settle for that!

[tkyler]

Good job Ben....its about time you got on the wagon:

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by tkyler

[MarRog]

Well, I don't know if Linux is the future of gaming, but it seems to me that this guy, Gable Newell of Valve, is on to something.

He is building up expectations, by releasing new information gradually, creating some sort of hype, but still making it believable.

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/

Comments over the web seem to share some of the enthousiasm :

http://www.osnews.com/story/27340/Valve_announces_Linux-based_SteamOS_major_devs_on_board

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Valve-Beta-Boosts-Linux-Gaming-Full-Steam-Ahead-79043.html

 

 

The idea of SteamOS is to create a Linux-based distribution, stripped down and optimized for gaming.

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/

Indead, for gaming (or simulation), there is no need for a general-purpose desktop OS with lots of overhead.

 

The Steam Machines will have this SteamOS pre-installed.

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/

 

He promises to keep the hardware and software completely open, as opposed to the gaming consoles that we have now. Mind you, he still wants the vendor-lock-in for the games from his store, but gamers will have the possibility to buy the hardware from different vendors with SteamOS pre-installed or not, or assemble their own using standard components. .

 

Now suppose (I am wildly speculating here) that the Steam platform gets widely adopted and becomes an accepted standard. Either a Steam Machine, or any PC with SteamOS, or in fact any Linux distro that adheres to this standard.

In that case, the suppliers of our favorite simulator and add-ons could release their product for Windows, Mac or ... "Any Steam-compatible platform" ...

The way X-Plane is written, it doesn't need a full-blown desktop OS. Being cross-platform, they didn't try to adhere to one desktop environment or another. So, a stripped-down OS, optimized for gaming (anti-flaming disclaimer: X-Plane is not a game) will do.

 

I am not saying that they should distribute it via the Steam store, just the fact that the platform is standardized would reduce the support hassle of different Linux distros.

 

I can dream, can't I?

 

Hey, Nvidia is dreaming too (but for a different reason, they want to open a new market for their graphics chips) :

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/steam-box-steamos-nvidia-valve,24405.html

http://www.osnews.com/story/27347/Valve_announces_Steam_Machines_

 

 

[Ben Russell]

I was interested right up until i saw the stupid touch pad controller.

[Ben Russell]

The controller is even worse than I'd imagined....

 

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/10/11/valve-demonstrates-steam-controller-in-new-video/

 

 

(right thumb, lift and swipe, repeat... YUCK)