"Linux is the future of gaming"

[LoseMagnet]

Cameron,

 

Actually, it is up to me to decide if you provide a great support, not you. I am the customer who pay and you are the person who provide the service against my money. And yes, i think your last message is little bit arrogant, even if it does not impact your business.

 

I think I got your point and we cannot agree about your communication policies.

 

Have a nice day/evening

Edited September 18, 2013 by LoseMagnet

[Cameron]

Actually, it is up to me to decide if you provide a great support, not you. I am the customer who pay and you are the person who provide the service against my money. And yes, i think your last message is little bit arrogant, even if it does not impact your business.

 

I'm sorry if you feel this way. I clarified lack of arrogance for a reason, though obviously this wasn't enough clarity for you. I base this on the feedback we receive from our customers for our support, as well as a number of topics praising and discussing just that. There are always varied opinions with everything in life, but majority typically wins the vote.

 

I think I got your point and we cannot agree regarding your communication policies.

 

I don't think you got my point, because if you did, there would have been slightly more agreement on the subject.

 

 

Have a nice day/evening

 

I'll try, and you do the same, sir!

[Ben Russell]

br@ubuntu:~/Desktop/Gizmo/build_linux/plugin_source$ uname -a
Linux ubuntu 3.2.0-29-generic #46-Ubuntu SMP Fri Jul 27 17:03:23 UTC 2012 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

 

br@ubuntu:~/Desktop/Gizmo/build_linux/plugin_source$ ls -la
total 17112
drwxrwxr-x 3 br br     4096 Sep 18 17:46 .
drwxrwxr-x 4 br br     4096 Sep 18 08:27 ..
drwxrwxr-x 4 br br     4096 Sep 18 08:27 CMakeFiles
-rw-rw-r-- 1 br br     1160 Dec 27  2012 cmake_install.cmake
-rwxrwxr-x 1 br br 17414698 Sep 18 17:44 Gizmo_lin.xpl
-rw-rw-r-- 1 br br    86075 Sep 18 08:27 Makefile

 

br@ubuntu:~/Desktop/Gizmo/build_linux/plugin_source$ ldd Gizmo_lin.xpl 
linux-vdso.so.1 =>  (0x00007fff4678c000)
libGLU.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGLU.so.1 (0x00007f987348a000)
libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/mesa/libGL.so.1 (0x00007f9873229000)
libpng12.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpng12.so.0 (0x00007f9873001000)
libz.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1 (0x00007f9872dea000)
libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007f9872aea000)
libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007f98727ef000)
libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007f98725d9000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007f987221c000)
/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f9873fd4000)
libglapi.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglapi.so.0 (0x00007f9871ff6000)
libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXext.so.6 (0x00007f9871de5000)
libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdamage.so.1 (0x00007f9871be2000)
libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3 (0x00007f98719db000)
libX11-xcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11-xcb.so.1 (0x00007f98717d9000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6 (0x00007f98714a5000)
libxcb-glx.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb-glx.so.0 (0x00007f987128d000)
libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1 (0x00007f987106f000)
libXxf86vm.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXxf86vm.so.1 (0x00007f9870e6a000)
libdrm.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdrm.so.2 (0x00007f9870c5e000)
libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f9870a41000)
libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f987083d000)
libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6 (0x00007f9870639000)
libXdmcp.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6 (0x00007f9870433000)
librt.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 (0x00007f987022a000)
br@ubuntu:~/Desktop/Gizmo/build_linux/plugin_source$


....but will you actually support it?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Ben Russell

[LoseMagnet]

Cameron, to believe that I do not agree with you because I probably do not get your point is also a bit....

So once again, I repeat it : I am not satisfied with your support because you did not communicate about this point.

 

I am not talking for your regular customers, I am talking for myself only, you are free to accept this feedback or not.

 

So let agree to disagree.

[Cameron]

Cameron, to believe that I do not agree with you because I probably do not get your point is also a bit....

...but you don't agree with me. You said it yourself.

 

So once again, I repeat it : I am not satisfied with your support because you did not communicate about this point.

And that's acceptable. But, again, you are you, and not everyone else. You speak from your own personal point of view. I speak from a volume of individuals who provide feedback. I know where you stand, and I also know where majority of others stand. We can definitely agree to disagree that the lack of an announcement over Linux support recently being dropped is not proper communication. At the end of the day, it played out how it did. Whether a formal letter was made or not doesn't and didn't change the outcome of the real situation, and that is my point.

You're the ONLY one to complain about that. Perhaps that means a lot...perhaps it doesn't. Generally, people speak when they are disappointed. You're no exception to this rule.

To me, there's a bigger issue here, and that is the fact that Linux users were given five whole years to show their support and the ball was dropped. The communication point, with regards to Linux, is moot. Obviously this would be a MUCH different story had it been Mac or Windows. Truth be told, I can count the total number of general disappointments for a drop of Linux support on one hand. To me, that's the real troubling part. Forget some announcement that's been publicly stated already. We're beyond that now, and scratching our heads.

[MdMax]

There's not much more to be said here if you guys can't get in a row and back your platform with sales.

 

EDIT: Think about what I just said there...we gave you guys FIVE years to prove your market on that product alone. It didn't happen!

 

To me, there's a bigger issue here, and that is the fact that Linux users were given five whole years to show their support and the ball was dropped.

 

Cameron, do you think we are from the X-Aviation marketing department and responsible for the sales on the Linux platform ? Please don't forget this: we are your paying customers.

 

How did you try to convince more customers ?

 

Your developers already made the work and compilation for the missing plug-in, you have the Linux installers, and you don't want to sell more products to your existing Linux customers ? OK it's your freedom, but this also explains your "1%" or the number of customers you can count on "one hand".

[Cameron]

Cameron, do you think we are from the X-Aviation marketing department and responsible for the sales on the Linux platform ? Please don't forget this: we are your paying customers.

 

How did you try to convince more customers ?

Please tell me that's a joke. You cannot tell me this is a serious statement, especially given the performance of Mac and Windows sales. Now all of a sudden I need to seek you out? Let's be real. That's NOT realistic.

How did you try to convince more customers ?

See above.

Your developers already made the work and compilation for the missing plug-in, you have the Linux installers, and you don't want to sell more products to your existing Linux customers ?

A ) It doesn't fully work...yet

B ) You still don't understand the economics. The LEAST bought for platform happens to be near the most frustrating to support. With so many flavors floating around, the possibilities of issues among you few that we see are so inconsistent and frustrating to deal with. It's never the same issue, always a head scratcher. Always a time sucker, and in turn, never a profit maker.

[MdMax]

Cameron, you're the vendor, we are your customers. You can't just ask your paying Linux customers "to get in a row and back their platform with sales". We already purchased your available products, we already published flight reports and screen shots in several forums. Do you realize that this helped your Mac & Windows sales ?

 

You don't see any communication problem ? Another example: during years, there was a "Linux soon" label for some of your products and it became this (and this is not IXEG):

 

As I said, it's your freedom not to support a platform, but communication is very important for a business. If you think "Linux users all are extremely vocal", maybe it's because they don't get the same support for the same price, and because of your past statements, or false labels, they expected something.

 

So there's nothing strange about the bad sales. X-Plane is a niche market, and Linux users are a minority in this market. I just say, your Linux sales could have been closer to the real Linux "market share" with another kind of communication & support.

Edited September 18, 2013 by MdMax

[Cameron]

We already purchased your available products, we already published flight reports and screen shots in several forums.

And your purchases yielded low returns - if any.

 

You don't see any communication problem ? Another example: during years, there was a "Linux soon" label for some of your products and it became this

This is a really, really poor point. Here's why: Anything not labelled as "soon" was already Linux supported, including our first out the gate products leading up to the point you speak of. You guys never ponied up and showed your face.

 

As I said, it's your freedom not to support a platform, but communication is very important for a business. If you think "Linux users all are extremely vocal", maybe it's because they don't get the same support for the same price, and because of your past statements, or false labels, they expected something.

This holds very little (if any) water. You can't argue for the sake of the platform if the platform for a particular product was never supported to begin with. That doesn't work.

 

So there's nothing strange about the bad sales. X-Plane is a niche market, and Linux users are a minority in this market. It just say, your Linux sales could have been closer to the real Linux "market share" with another kind of communication & support.

There's a consensus around many developers even outside of XA. They pretty much all have the same feelings, so I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this one bit. It's been a pretty well spoken topic amongst developers as of late, and I continue to hear more who are not associated to us with plans to drop support for the platform.

The first 4-5 products that came out (in a row) on X-Aviation all supported Linux, MdMax. This whole silly talk of "coming soon" being the cause is inaccurate at best, if not just because we had full on multiple product support before any of that was EVER said. Our OLDEST and seemingly overly popular add-on with which we opened our store with even supported Linux for five years, and yet the sales never showed up. What gives?

We should only have to market to X-Plane users and not specifically X-Plane Linux users. Everyone is a targeted, generalized crowd here. If you insinuate that one would have to work extra hard to get 30 more sales, then I'm afraid the ingredients are just not there to consider your platform of choice viable.

[MdMax]

And your purchases yielded low returns - if any.

 

I paid your price, so you can't blame me and your other Linux customers for your low returns.

[Cameron]

I paid your price, so you can't blame me and your other Linux customers for your low returns.

I don't blame you, but I blame your flawed philosophy on the matter in the context of this thread. Your personal support was appreciated and you may have done your part, but as you know, a business cannot rely on few sales to sustain life. There has to be a return. The business goes under if overhead is higher than profit.

To put this really, really simple: if there was real money to be made in the Linux market, we wouldn't be out of it. You don't know till you try...and we tried.

[Ben Russell]

Just getting the Official X-Plane installer to run on modern Linux is a joke.

 

1. Download, unzip, run.

 

2. "/bin/bash: File not found." or something very similar and utterly useless.

 

3. Google.

 

4. Oh, right, the sim is 64 bit by default but the installer isn't yet.

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/365129-in-ubuntu-i-cant-install-x-plane-10/?p=2287026

 

Time to install "ia32libs"... with modern Ubuntu's crap package manager that's too smart and too "app store", makes it hard to find anything except an exact match.

(I'm looking to do this as cheaply as possible, I'm not interested in learning how good their new process is, I've been using debian on and off since about 1998.)

 

5. Stuff around figuring out that it's NOT ia32libs, it's ia32-libs.

 

6. Ubuntu is out of date since you installed it and needs a 400 mb update.

 

7. The X-Plane installer now runs, but promptly tells you, via secret command line only note, that Gallium display drivers are not supported.

 

8. Download the "demo installer" for Mac, download a copy of X-Plane Linux using my Mac.

 

9. Transfer demo over to VM host.

 

10. Oh, that testing you did for X-Plane a few months back using a Virtual Machine, yeah, we killed that feature.

 

11. Wait until Ben Supnik is online to query how to start the sim even though we know the drivers suck.

 

 

...and that's just to get a test copy of X-Plane running.... so bad that it's just funny.

[Ben Russell]

1. Download, unzip, run.

 

2. Download X-Plane for your OS by clicking "Continue" approx 5 times in a row.

 

3. "Start X-Plane Now."

 

Sincerely,

Your Windows or Mac OS

 

There is no debate here.

[Andyrooc]

Re: Point 6. If you think that's bad, you should try Windows!

[Ben Russell]

Windows can be temporarily ignored.

 

Linux will just drown you in 404 repo errors if you try that trick... it never ends well.

[Ben Russell]

Attention Linux users:

 

New poll running here:

http://forums.x-pilot.com/topic/5712-gizmo-development-focus/

 

Vote.

[Ntr09]

Just getting the Official X-Plane installer to run on modern Linux is a joke.

 

1. Download, unzip, run.

 

2. "/bin/bash: File not found." or something very similar and utterly useless.

 

3. Google.

 

4. Oh, right, the sim is 64 bit by default but the installer isn't yet.

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/365129-in-ubuntu-i-cant-install-x-plane-10/?p=2287026

 

Time to install "ia32libs"... with modern Ubuntu's crap package manager that's too smart and too "app store", makes it hard to find anything except an exact match.

(I'm looking to do this as cheaply as possible, I'm not interested in learning how good their new process is, I've been using debian on and off since about 1998.)

 

5. Stuff around figuring out that it's NOT ia32libs, it's ia32-libs.

 

6. Ubuntu is out of date since you installed it and needs a 400 mb update.

 

7. The X-Plane installer now runs, but promptly tells you, via secret command line only note, that Gallium display drivers are not supported.

 

8. Download the "demo installer" for Mac, download a copy of X-Plane Linux using my Mac.

 

9. Transfer demo over to VM host.

 

10. Oh, that testing you did for X-Plane a few months back using a Virtual Machine, yeah, we killed that feature.

 

11. Wait until Ben Supnik is online to query how to start the sim even though we know the drivers suck.

 

 

...and that's just to get a test copy of X-Plane running.... so bad that it's just funny.

This is not true at all. I installed X-Plane 10 as easily as you can for any other OS just a few weeks ago on Linux Mint. Not to mention I did the same thing on Ubuntu about a year ago and had no such issues. What you just said was so bad it's NOT funny.

 

-NR

[Cameron]

This is not true at all. I installed X-Plane 10 as easily as you can for any other OS just a few weeks ago on Linux Mint. Not to mention I did the same thing on Ubuntu about a year ago and had no such issues. What you just said was so bad it's NOT funny.

LOL. Are you trying to tell Ben the experience he just had did not just really happen to him?

For the record, I had the exact same problem recently, as did someone else who Ben linked to in that Avsim topic (two people actually)...and so did another person who just messaged me a bit ago privately saying their experience with X-Plane in Linux was the same.

 

What you just said was so bad it's NOT funny.

Best you look in the mirror. Trying to dispute someone's experience that they just step-by-step laid out is in poor taste.

 

It's true. Your experience may vary...and that's a BIG part of the problem.

[Ntr09]

He made it sound much worse than I'm sure it was. The way people exaggerate things like that ticks me off.

 

-NR

[Ben Russell]

[Ben Russell]

He made it sound much worse than I'm sure it was. The way people exaggerate things like that ticks me off.

 

-NR

 

I made it sound like a transcription of what happened. Yesterday.

[Cameron]

The way people exaggerate things like that ticks me off.

 

Haha...apparently you don't know Ben. There's no such thing as exaggeration for him.

 

EVERY one of his points seem straight and "to the point". Please, by all means, name off the one's you feel did not happen.

 

Cheerio!

[Ntr09]

You guys...

 

[MdMax]

Funny thing: all the complains about Linux here are because of the software by Laminar Research, not the OS. Installing software on Linux is very very simple:

1) You go to the Software Center (or package manager)

2) You select the solftware you want to install

3) You click install

4) When there's an update, you get a notification or an automatic update.

 

This is not the case in Windows or Mac OS. These operating systems are almost empty, no programs and tools inside. Some of them don't even have an office suite or a PDF reader. You have to find everything on the net or in shops, and install everything with separate installers and updaters just like in the past century. This is the part where new users (not IT experts), install spyware & malware & bloatware instead of a descent reader.

 

Back to X-Plane: I couldn't find X-Plane in my Software Center (nor X-Aviation add-ons). This is why most Linux users don't even know there's a Linux version for X-Plane. When they know the name "X-Plane", they continue to think it's a small mobile app for Android and iOS. If you go to gaming/simulation in the Software Center, you'll find FlightGear, not X-Plane. You can also find payware apps, the Software Center is not only for Free Open-Source Software. This is also the place where I'm informed when a new Indi Bundle is available, or Steam.

 

Let's Google how to install X-Plane on Linux ("install x-plane linux"). 1st match is this:

http://wiki.x-plane.com/Linux_Installation_Walkthrough

 

 

After getting the installer on the desktop, we will download any software libraries needed by X-Plane but not present on the system. On a 64-bit system, this usually means downloading the 32-bit versions of Mesa (a free implementation of the OpenGL graphics library) and OpenAL (an audio library). Some 32-bit systems will already have these installed.

 

??? For someone who is not an IT expert (or a Linux user who is not used to complicated procedures), does this explain something ? I don't know. But I think this page could be improved with useful information: the names of the needed libraries you have to install so a user only has to copy & paste the names in his Software Center or package manager. You also need the proprietary driver for your GPU. I never saw X-Plane 10 running on open-source drivers. It should be written somewhere. There's a link to the X-Plane.org Linux forum, but you may have to read several pinned topics before you find the information you need.

 

Conclusion: if you don't have a distribution where all the needed libraries are already installed, you'll need to find answers and they are not easy to find for someone who is used to install software with a simple click.

 

 

I only hope Austin Meyer will not think the same way about economics and how returns should be, because then, he would not only drop the Linux version but also the Mac & Windows versions, returns are a lot better on the iOS market (mobile X-Plane, Xavion, etc...).

Edited September 19, 2013 by MdMax

[pryoski]

Conclusion: if you don't have a distribution where all the needed libraries are already installed, you'll need to find answers and they are not easy to find for someone who is used to install software with a simple click.

 

And that's the issue in a nutshell .. and what I've been harping on for ages on the Linux Advocacy forums. Linux may be the next best thing since sliced bread .. but paired with the intention to install X-Plane on it .. it's a bloody nightmare .. especially for a person who has no knowledge of the OS to begin with.

 

It shouldn't matter that Linux is great and all that .. for an X-Plane user what matters is that they can install XP with minimum fuss, get their setup working (JS etc) with minimum fuss .. and get to fly some awesome payware planes .. with minimum fuss.

 

If this all means that I have to fly Windows 7 .. then so be it .. thank be to the gods that I can do all of that in Windows .. and I'm sure the Mac guys feel the same way .

 

Linux advocates have a bit of work to do .. if they want a future that supports their OS ..

It's unreasonable to expect the devs to do it .. when they're trying to survive (and hopefully thrive) as a business .. and when people are downright rude and unsociable to these same devs .. it's just unconscionable behaviour IMO (not saying it's you btw!).

 

Cheers Kris P.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Kris Pryo