Flying go-arounds and diverting

[andrewflies]

So I had a few questions regarding go around procedure as I'm somewhat new to the Challenger. If I set up the appropriate go around altitude and then press the TO/GA button to initiate a go-around, I follow the FD and work through the go-around checklist. My question is with respect to FMS sequencing. The legs of my current flightplan usually end at the end of the go around procedure. What is the correct procedure to transition from the go-around to a new approach? I've done it by either selecting DEP/ARR and reselecting the approach and executing it as well as by copying a saved secondary flightplan to active and then execute a direct to the IAF. Which is the proper way of doing this?

In addition, how would I go-around and divert? I'm unsure how to append the alternate flightplan to the end of the existing flightplan (like how the Airbus FMS does it) or whether this is even possible in the Proline 21. My current method is to create an "alternate" flightplan and save it in the route menu before taking off. Then while working through the go-around procedure I load and activate this stored flightplan. But this seems kind of clunky and becomes awkward if runways have changed. How is an alternate supposed to be dealt with?

[bpcw0001]

In my experience, if you need to divert at your destination , the route given by ATC is pretty ad hoc anyway.

Most of the time they‘ll throw some waypoints at you and you need to set up the flight plan on the go, including negotiation of the runway at the alternate airport.

Imho not much to set up already before takeoff.

preplanned sec flpn comes in more handy for having one engine out departures or immediate returns to the departure airport ready at hand and preplanned.

Other than that, when diverting, enter a hold at your actual destination (active fpln), copy diversion route instructions from ATC and set up your diversion route in sec fpln.

When done, activate sec fpln, and direct-to first waypoint (or whatever atc wants). 

When not holding, e. g. direct diversion right after go-around, same thing. Be on HDG, prepare/activate sec fpln, then direct-to first wpt, and back to NAV.

Surely there are many ways to skin a cat. I found diversions to be highly dynamic in nature. Usually ATC asks for intentions after GA and will accomodate.

Edited August 2, 2023 by bpcw0001

[Pils]

16 hours ago, andrewflies said:

I've done it by either selecting DEP/ARR and reselecting the approach and executing it as well as by copying a saved secondary flightplan to active and then execute a direct to the IAF. Which is the proper way of doing this?

Probably the former is more "intuitive" and it also maintains the flight plan history, but whatever works for you, basically.

[richjb]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:00 AM, andrewflies said:

So I had a few questions regarding go around procedure as I'm somewhat new to the Challenger. If I set up the appropriate go around altitude and then press the TO/GA button to initiate a go-around, I follow the FD and work through the go-around checklist. My question is with respect to FMS sequencing. The legs of my current flightplan usually end at the end of the go around procedure. What is the correct procedure to transition from the go-around to a new approach? I've done it by either selecting DEP/ARR and reselecting the approach and executing it as well as by copying a saved secondary flightplan to active and then execute a direct to the IAF. Which is the proper way of doing this?

In addition, how would I go-around and divert? I'm unsure how to append the alternate flightplan to the end of the existing flightplan (like how the Airbus FMS does it) or whether this is even possible in the Proline 21. My current method is to create an "alternate" flightplan and save it in the route menu before taking off. Then while working through the go-around procedure I load and activate this stored flightplan. But this seems kind of clunky and becomes awkward if runways have changed. How is an alternate supposed to be dealt with?

There are a couple of ways that you can accomplish flying another approach or diverting to an alternate. During simulator training, we have transition from one approach another quite often.

The first option is to re-load the same approach or a different approach (e.g. due to a runway change) by just going to the DEP/ARR page.  Flying many different FMSs over he years (Collins, Universal, Garmin) there is one thing that I have learned. If you are flying the missed approach and plan to enter the missed approach hold, don't touch a damn thing until you're in the hold.  Now, in the Collins FMS, re-loading the same approach or a new approach from the DEP/ARR page will not hurt you since if you load another approach into the FMS for the same destination, it's "smart enough" to load that approach AFTER the current missed approach procedure and missed hold. I don't know if this is simulated in HS650 this way off the top of my head (I believe so), but by reputation of its designer, I would not bet against it!   

If you select and load another approach in the Universal or Garmin FMS BEFORE you are established in the missed hold, you will wipe out the previous missed approach and missed approach hold if you try to load another approach before you are established in the hold.  If ATC needs you to hold, or the instructor needs to see you enter the hold for grading purposes, your co-pilot is now a$$s and elbows re-loading the missed approach hold, and you are buying the beers at dinner that evening!  Lesson:  Wait until you are either in the missed approach or wait until ATC starts vectoring you for the next approach.  Then load the next approach.  You should be able to do that without any issues since the the DEST on FLT PLN page has not changed.  On the DEP/ARR page, just select the desired approach. 

If you are diverting, there are two options.  The first one is not simulated in HS650 and that is to use the ALT LEGS page.  If you have an ALT entered on the FLT PLN page, then if you cycle through all of the LEGS pages to the very end and after you pass the last LEG associated with the destination airport/approach, you will go to the ALT LEGS page. This is where we will load the OEI escape procedure for takeoff, but it can also be used to load the waypoints for the flight to the alternate, which is usually "DIRECT", or something simple like that.  If your CFP has a route to the alternate, you can load it on these pages.  This will get you pointed towards the alternate airport until you can update the FLT PLN page and change the DEST entry on the FLT PLN page to the alternate so that you can bring up the approaches on the DEP/APP page. 

I do not use the SEC FLT PLN page for diverting because it will drop all the performance information, including my ZFW (PAX and CARGO load information if you use that) on the PERF page, and now I have to re-load all that to get my landing weights and VSPEED data accurate on the APPROACH REF pages. I just made more work for myself or my co-pilot.  Same thing happens if I use the SEC FLT PLN for my OEI escape procedure.  All my PERF data including my V-Speeds (e.g., VT) drop and must re-entered.  That's a pain when climbing out at V2 speed and your V-speeds suddenly go away.  Again, more work for you when already have enough work to do.  More beers at bar that night for my long suffering sim co-pilot, too! 

Been flying the Collins FMS for nearly 20 years now.  That's how I do it. I hope this helps!

Rich Boll

[dlrk]

What about just replacing the current destination with the new one in the active flight plan?

[richjb]

13 hours ago, dlrk said:

What about just replacing the current destination with the new one in the active flight plan?

 You will have to do that to get the approaches for the alternate.  The ALT LEGS page allows you to pre-program your route to your alternate before you begin the approach to the destination.  In the meantime, using the ALT LEGS page allows you to monitor fuel required to the alternate and reserves to post the CHECK FUEL AT ALTERNATE message. 

Rich

[bpcw0001]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:19 AM, richjb said:

I do not use the SEC FLT PLN page for diverting because it will drop all the performance information, including my ZFW (PAX and CARGO load information if you use that) on the PERF page, and now I have to re-load all that to get my landing weights and VSPEED data accurate on the APPROACH REF pages. I just made more work for myself or my co-pilot.  Same thing happens if I use the SEC FLT PLN for my OEI escape procedure.  All my PERF data including my V-Speeds (e.g., VT) drop and must re-entered.  That's a pain when climbing out at V2 speed and your V-speeds suddenly go away.  Again, more work for you when already have enough work to do.  More beers at bar that night for my long suffering sim co-pilot, too! 

Very good insights, thanks.

Seems that the ALT LEGS functionality would merit some implementation in the HS Challenger then.

Since we don't have it in the sim (yet), what about setting up SEC PERF for the SEC FPLN beforehand? Would that not mitigate losing all the PERF information when a quick switch is required? Surely it would mean double work in setting up PERF, but you wouldn't have to do it only when things are getting hot and you need to switch to SEC FPLN quickly.

Edited August 15, 2023 by bpcw0001

[richjb]

6 hours ago, bpcw0001 said:

Very good insights, thanks.

Seems that the ALT LEGS functionality would merit some implementation in the HS Challenger then.

Since we don't have it in the sim (yet), what about setting up SEC PERF for the SEC FPLN beforehand? Would that not mitigate losing all the PERF information when a quick switch is required? Surely it would mean double work in setting up PERF, but you wouldn't have to do it only when things are getting hot and you need to switch to SEC FPLN quickly.

You could do that, but it might be just easier to change the DEST in the FLT PLN page once you're heading towards your alternate airport.  The go back into the LEGS page and build the route to the alternate.   First, get the airplane going to the first fix on the route.  Let's say that Wichita KS (KICT) is your destination and Hutchison KS (KHUT) is your alternate.  You're tired of shooting and missing the ILS 01L approach at KICT due to fog, etc., whatever.  Time to go to KHUT.  Wichita gives you the following clearance to KHUT: "N1234 is now to cleared to the Hutchison airport via direct Wichita VORTAC, Victor 73, Hutchison VORTAC, then direct, climb and maintain 6000".  By the way, this was a common clearance we gave in the sim when I was an instructor in the Learjets while at FlightSafey. 

Step 1:  On the LEGS page, type in ICT to go direct, then EXEC

Step 2:  On the FLT PLN page, change DEST to KHUT

Step 3: On the FLT PLN page, delete any remaining approach going into KICT

Step 4: on the FLT PLN page, type in:

                  V73                HUT

                   DIRECT         KHUT (this is optional)

Step 5: On the DEP/ARR page, select KHUT and enter the expected approach, e.g., ILS 13

Your performance data should remain, i.e., PAX and CARGO, ZFW entry, etc. 

With ALT LEGS page, you can set some of this up ahead of time.  However, as practical matter, I have never used the ALT LEGS page to preload my flight the alternate.  Most of the time if you are diverting to your alternate, ATC will clear you direct.  In mountainous areas, that might different.   

ALT LEGS page is mostly used for programming your engine failure departure procedure, so that it is ready to use if the engine fails on takeoff after V1, assuming that it is not a straight-out departure. 

Rich 

 

 

[bpcw0001]

37 minutes ago, richjb said:

You could do that, but it might be just easier to change the DEST in the FLT PLN page once you're heading towards your alternate airport.  The go back into the LEGS page and build the route to the alternate.   First, get the airplane going to the first fix on the route.  Let's say that Wichita KS (KICT) is your destination and Hutchison KS (KHUT) is your alternate.  You're tired of shooting and missing the ILS 01L approach at KICT due to fog, etc., whatever.  Time to go to KHUT.  Wichita gives you the following clearance to KHUT: "N1234 is now to cleared to the Hutchison airport via direct Wichita VORTAC, Victor 73, Hutchison VORTAC, then direct, climb and maintain 6000".  By the way, this was a common clearance we gave in the sim when I was an instructor in the Learjets while at FlightSafey. 

Step 1:  On the LEGS page, type in ICT to go direct, then EXEC

Step 2:  On the FLT PLN page, change DEST to KHUT

Step 3: On the FLT PLN page, delete any remaining approach going into KICT

Step 4: on the FLT PLN page, type in:

                  V73                HUT

                   DIRECT         KHUT (this is optional)

Step 5: On the DEP/ARR page, select KHUT and enter the expected approach, e.g., ILS 13

Your performance data should remain, i.e., PAX and CARGO, ZFW entry, etc. 

With ALT LEGS page, you can set some of this up ahead of time.  However, as practical matter, I have never used the ALT LEGS page to preload my flight the alternate.  Most of the time if you are diverting to your alternate, ATC will clear you direct.  In mountainous areas, that might different.   

ALT LEGS page is mostly used for programming your engine failure departure procedure, so that it is ready to use if the engine fails on takeoff after V1, assuming that it is not a straight-out departure. 

Rich 

 

 

Thanks. I really appreciate you real-world pilots sharing knowledge here.

 

 

 

 

 

[richjb]

4 hours ago, bpcw0001 said:

Thanks. I really appreciate you real-world pilots sharing knowledge here.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you!