Which plane?

[JBalsa]

Hey guys, I'm 13 years old right now, and I am in ground school at the Edmonton Flight College. I am starting training on my PPL hopefully this month. I need to choose one of 3 aircraft to train on.

-Refurbished Cessna 152 (http://www.edmontonflyingclub.com/PAGES/c152.cfm) Least expensive

-Brand new DA 20 Eclipse (http://www.edmontonflyingclub.com/PAGES/c-1.cfm) In between

-New(er) Cessna 172 SP (http://www.edmontonflyingclub.com/PAGES/c172.cfm) Most expensive

So I was wondering which plane is best for me to train on. I particularly like the DA20 because it has a joystick, and is not the most expensive plane. Some say the 152 is small, and responsive, and would go best with me, and some say that the 172 SP is the easiest and most high-tech to fly. So I was wondering about your opinions. 

[Dhruv]

I would recommend that you start in the 152. It may get a bad rap among beginning flight students as being hard to get the hang of, but conducting your primary training in a 152 will pay dividends down the line. I did my first 30 hours in a 150 and can safely say that it taught me some of the best positive aircraft control (commonly referred to as "stick and rudder" flying) of my career. Having learnt basic attitude flying in the 150 put me in a good position to transition into heavier, faster, more stable aircraft.

Also, I wouldn't let price be the determining factor, but you should also consider that the 152, being the cheapest to operate, will also hurt your finances less should you find the going tough in a lesson or two and be forced to do repeat training.

[Daveduck]

DA-20.  Definitely. 

It's new--and it's the future.  Plus an older version is what I trained on, so I'm biased...

[Kaphias]

I'm by no means a professional pilot- I've barely started training, if that. But if I was in your situation, I'd go with the 152. My belief is that you must learn the old before you learn the new. As Dhruv said, the 152 will teach you many lessons you will use later. I know how tempting it is to choose the DA 20 (I looked at the pics- wow) but I think you'd regret it later.

Best of luck with school, and feel grateful you have such a great place to train right out your door!

[JBalsa]

Thanks for all of the input guys! I really appreciate it! By the looks of it, I will probably go with the 152. It's Ironic, the 152 at the EFC is the oldest running 152 in Western Canada, but yet has the most modern panel in all of Western Canada. 

The 152 it is!

Thanks! - Jman

[JGregory]

Good Choice!

I learned and took my check ride in a 152.  You will not regret the decision to start in a 152.  As Dhruv said, with the 152 you will learn how to actually fly with "stick and rudder", as it should be.

Good luck,

Jim

[Airbus]

I rember someones signature saying "Never fly anything that has the paint worn off the rudder petals"! I started with the 152 I also train in a 172. Soon I may be training in the Diamond.

I

'm by no means a professional pilot- I've barely started training, if that. But if I was in your situation, I'd go with the 152. My belief is that you must learn the old before you learn the new. As Dhruv said, the 152 will teach you many lessons you will use later.

I agree with that 100% good choice the 152 is my pick!

[LA]

I'd go for the DA20! And I'm certainly biased towards "sticks" and canopies that you can see a lot more out of than 152's! Afterall, that's what my real plane has! 

Although I have the "six pac" for instruments; if the DA20 has glass, then so much the better; as it's the future of aviation anyway.  To be honest, I'm not a real fan of 152's. I trained in them a bit, but always went with something larger and more powerful like the Piper Archers and a few Cessna 172's.

L.Adamson

[Dhruv]

Just my 2 cents Larry, but I don't know if I agree with your assertion of starting a zero-time student off in a glass cockpit. The first few hours of flight training should be focused upon learning basic attitude flying and VFR airmanship, which, regardless of how many fun toys are in the cockpit, has more to do with looking out the windows than twiddling knobs on a GPS and staring at a moving map.

IMO, having a glass cockpit with all the bells and whistles may be a nice safety net, but it also creates a tendency to fixate inside the cockpit, which is not a good habit to be ingraining into someone who won't be instrument-rated for at least 3-4 years based on his age.

[JBalsa]

Our DA20 Eclipse does not have a glass cockpit. Have a look at the pictures. The cessna 152 has the newest avionics system, including electronic tachometers, and a garmin 430.

[LA]

Just my 2 cents Larry, but I don't know if I agree with your assertion of starting a zero-time student off in a glass cockpit. The first few hours of flight training should be focused upon learning basic attitude flying and VFR airmanship, which, regardless of how many fun toys are in the cockpit, has more to do with looking out the windows than twiddling knobs on a GPS and staring at a moving map.

IMO, having a glass cockpit with all the bells and whistles may be a nice safety net, but it also creates a tendency to fixate inside the cockpit, which is not a good habit to be ingraining into someone who won't be instrument-rated for at least 3-4 years based on his age.

Numerous test studies in the last few years have shown that those who start with "glass" end up a head of those who begin with "six pacs". The glass students also passed their PPL with less flight hours than the six packers. Turns out, the "glass" students picked up on the navigational aspects of flying from day one; in addition to learning how to fly the plane.

No offense, but as a staunch advocate of moving map GPS, I don't consider them as toys as all! I've been using moving map GPS since the early nineties. I also keep a large database of flight into terrain accidents; and GPS as well as synthetic vision is a "major" advance in regards to preventing these type of accidents. I use a Garmin 696 myself; and it's extremely beneficial in regards to restricted airspace boundaries and up to date XM Satellite weather; let alone so many other uses, such as controlling my auto-pilot, terrain, obstacles, airport runway diagrams, etc.

L.Adamson

[LA]

Our DA20 Eclipse does not have a glass cockpit. Have a look at the pictures. The cessna 152 has the newest avionics system, including electronic tachometers, and a garmin 430.

To add to the confusion...  ???

Looks like the refurbished 152 looks rather decent. Not bad! But..............I'm not a real fan of yokes!  ;D

Go for the sticks!  They are more precise

L.Adamson

[JBalsa]

I still think that the C152 is better for me. 1: It's a smaller plane, and it's a slower plane. I have 0 hours, and I don't want to jump right into the high tech. 2: Like Dhruv said, it will probably teach me more valuable lessons. With the Diamond, flying is easier, and prepares you less, keeps you less alert. 3: It's the cheapest model 4: It's been refurbished with new avionics and new upholstery etc. 5: It's more stable then the Diamond and requires much less compensation for turns, and stalls etc.

Overall, the 152 is best for me as a starter plane. Perhaps I will take the Diamond when I start going for my night rating. The 172 is DEFINITELY out of the question. It's big, heavy, and expensive.

Thanks for all of your replies!

You guys have helped me make my decision. (And at the price, I think my parents will approve!  )

Thanks allot! - Jman

[gilbenl]

I have done the VAST majority of my training in a 172, and that is what I suggest to many who ask this question. This is due to a few things: First, and most obvious, is that I am 200 or so lbs, and the majority of the instructors are going to be about that too...and the weight limit on the 152 won't allow for that much weight. This pertains to you in the sense that when you have your PPL, when you take friends/family up, its going to HAVE to be a 172 unless you have only one friend, and a light friend at that. Therefore, it is in your benefit to get your license on the plane you'll be taking people up in. Second, the 152 is TINY. Now, I don't know how big you are, but at thirteen, I don't forsee this being a problem...get back to me after puberty. I'm 6'4 and although thats unusually tall, most teens/adults 5'11" and taller find the 152 cockpit VERY cramped. Finally, I disagree that the 152 teaches you how to fly any better than a 172. The 172 is simply a larger plane, but has the same design. I have flown 15 hours or so in both, and I will tell you that you get the difference in about 5 minutes of flying. Simply put, the 152 is just a bit less stable, yet quicker than the 172 depending on the loading. If you're solo, then a 172 is going to be a bit more speedy, but less responsive. That being said, I disagree with the earlier comment about the 152 being any more "stick and rudder" than a 172. In your particular case, the only reason to learn in a 152 is price. Because 152's are typically older than 172's in my experience...although not always (152 produced 1977-85, 172 produced 1956-today), they tend to have a cheaper rental price. Where I fly, for example, a 1980 152 is $75USD/hr while a 1985 172 is $95 USD/Hr. In my experience, albeit limited, the 172 is the most available rental as well, and having a flown in it throughout your training, will make a checkride at other FBO's much easier. This is just my experience though. It may differ from person to person.

All of this aside, you're going to learn how to fly in any light plane, be it a DA-20 or a 1950 Cessna 150. The only difference will be the more rudimentary aircraft will make you work more. That being said, don't learn in a DA-20. I HATE them...the stick is only fun for about 20 minutes, then I want a darn yoke. I find that a yoke provides more "positive" control, and less error than a stick. Again, just my opinion.

-Nick

[JBalsa]

Thanks for the response Nick,

    I don't plan on flying a DA 20, a person at my flying club tried one, and said it wasn't "flying" it was sitting in a plane and moving a stick. I've heard that the Diamond is very weight limited (It's a 2 seater, and is very cramped) and is not fun to fly. Though I prefer a joystick, a yoke will do me just fine. One of the 152's at our flying club is very weight capable, and can hold (max) 37.5 gallons of useable fuel. It also has a fully featured ILS (The equipment it has is S/C, translating to standard equipment, and mode C transponder) and many other features that most 152's don't have. The 172 IMHO is far too big (Usually, you can't even fly 4 people in one, it may not exceed CG or weight limits, but it sure will be hard to fly) and much too pricy. I am lucky enough to live in a family that was successful financially, but I still don't want to cost them more than they need to pay. The 152 will do me just fine for now. I am only 13, I am legally allowed to start flying solo in July when I am 14. Most of the other other courses (Multi engine, IFR, Night Rating, Commercial) I can't go solo in until I am 17. Perhaps in the future I will fly a 172, but for now, I am perfectly suited for the 152.

    Does anyone know of anything that may prepare me for my training? A fellow student at the EFC lent me a program called "Comm 1 Radio Simulator" that has helped me allot in learning how to talk to ATC and memorize the Alphabet and Numeric system.

    Just a heads up on my training, I am currently still in ground school, I managed to pass the meteorology (commercial) level exam by a mere 1%!  Our met instructor really gave us a hard time on our exams! I also passed my General Knowledge exam, I got about 70% on that one. (Not the highest marks, but I am really trying hard. At my age, it's not the easiest stuff to grasp) I am in Navigation right now. My membership with the flying club allows me to take the 4 modules of ground school as many times as I want within 1 year, so I am going to take the 4 modules twice, just to get the stuff in my head.

Thanks for your help! - Jman

[LA]

That being said, don't learn in a DA-20. I HATE them...the stick is only fun for about 20 minutes, then I want a darn yoke. I find that a yoke provides more "positive" control, and less error than a stick. Again, just my opinion.

Well......... you don't and won't see many aerobatic planes with yokes.  ;D  Because in reality, it's the stick that always has more precise control. Yokes have cogs, cables, chains, and pulleys, and are always subject to strech, wear, and slop. Sticks on the other hand, are usually full length push/pull tubes supported by bearings.  If you can't tell, I'm a bonified "stick" pilot. I won't even use a yoke for flight simming..  ;D

L.Adamson

[JBalsa]

Okay,

So I talked with my parents about which plane I should pick, and though the difference in price is a determining factor, I can choose which plane would suite me the most. Tomorrow I will post a poll on the .org forums. (Because polls aren't available here) I am still probably sticking with the 152.

Thanks! - Jman

[Ben Russell]

This forum definitely has Poll functions Jason...

Maybe you cant see them at your user level but I'm pretty sure we have all the relevant options enabled for all user levels..

When creating a new topic there is a button in the same bar that is labelled "Post New Poll".

When replying to an existing thread there is a button labelled "Add Poll".

[JBalsa]

Ok, I have added a poll! Thanks Indi! Vote away guys! 

[MNG]

Hi Jason, see the last post was a while back but I have to add my 2 c worth.  I agree with the 152 but I would suggest you move over to the 172 in time as it will give you more feel for bigger aircraft.  I like both yoke and stick but for training there is nothing like the 152 and late the 172.  I also like high wing aircraft for training because of the better view they give you for learning nav and funny enough, seeing the runway etc.  In my opinion yokes are also easier to fly for a student (remember just my opinion).  Sticks are great fun and I like the room it greates in the cab, such as the case in the Cirrus SR range. 

Trust it is going well with your training.  Enjoy. 

[JBalsa]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I think you're right about moving into the 172 in the future. The 152 cabin is very small, but adequate enough for me. I will hopefully start flying in June, and currently I am in Air Law and getting ready to write my PSTAR exam.