FAA Drone Regulations

[Oliver]

Hi everyone,


I wanted to get input from fellow members in the US on the FAA regulations for drones. I've been tossing around the idea of purchasing one for my real estate company but I'm a bit worried of the potential hazards it could impose on my pilot licenses and my future with the FAA.

After having done some research, I've found that the rules for drones are quite vague in substance. It also appears that the FAA will soon start requiring pilot licenses in order to operate drones. 

To make it short... Have any of you ever flown personal drones around your towns? If so, have any of you been reprimanded by the FAA for any reason relating to the operation of your drone.


Much appreciated,

Olivier C.

[Sethesus]

I did a paper on drones, and did a lot of research on them.

 

From what I understand, only commercial use of drones is prohibited, so you will be able to fly your drone if it's not-for-profit.  And if I remember correctly, drones that fly under a certain altitude (I can't remember what) are considered recreational.

 

Since you have a PPL, I don't think you would be reprimanded for using a drone, as long as you use it like you would fly someone in a Cessna (without charging).

 

Also, this is a new field of aviation that new regulations are being made for, so who know what the FAA will ultimately decide.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Sethesus

[Oliver]

I did a paper on drones, and did a lot of research on them.

 

From what I understand, only commercial use of drones is prohibited, so you will be able to fly your drone if it's not-for-profit.  And if I remember correctly, drones that fly under a certain altitude (I can't remember what) are considered recreational.

 

Since you have a PPL, I don't think you would be reprimanded for using a drone, as long as you use it like you would fly someone in a Cessna (without charging).

 

Also, this is a new field of aviation that new regulations are being made for, so who know what the FAA will ultimately decide.

Thanks a lot for your reply, Seth. I'll look into the altitudes. 

Olivier C.

[Colin S]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to get input from fellow members in the US on the FAA regulations for drones. I've been tossing around the idea of purchasing one for my real estate company but I'm a bit worried of the potential hazards it could impose on my pilot licenses and my future with the FAA.

After having done some research, I've found that the rules for drones are quite vague in substance. It also appears that the FAA will soon start requiring pilot licenses in order to operate drones. 

To make it short... Have any of you ever flown personal drones around your towns? If so, have any of you been reprimanded by the FAA for any reason relating to the operation of your drone.

Much appreciated,

Olivier C.

 

There must be some exception, considering the number of small-time, yet commercial, film-makers using drones nowadays.

[Oliver]

There must be some exception, considering the number of small-time, yet commercial, film-makers using drones nowadays.

I'd also have to look into the FAA definition of "commercial" to see if it's the same as their airplane definition of commercial.

I'd be using this solely to do videos that showcase properties... but I wouldn't be receiving compensation for the flight itself. I suppose this would be considered the same as being a private pilot and taking a photographer flying for him to take pictures of houses. If he doesn't directly pay you for the flight, it doesn't directly count as commercial flying.

Luckily, I'll have my commercial pilot license within the next few months... hopefully it'll give me even more leniency if I ever have to encounter the FAA for anything drone related. 

[Sethesus]

The FAA currently does offer Certificates of Authorization to use drones commercially to public entities (public schools, police departments, etc), but they don't issue them to private parties.  (Although, I believe a several Hollywood film agencies got COAs from the FAA recently, but I think that took them several years to get.)

 

If you want, I could send you my paper.

[Jim Kallinen]

Best info in the world about commercial drone use can be found by signing up for this forum.

Many commercial users and knowledgeable users here. Been a member for the past 10 years.

 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php

 

This thread is the most useful one since it directly covers your issue. But with 501 pages to view, use the search function.

 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1703587

 

After reading some of that thread, you might have to filter out the BS to get any real info, more pissed piss off users posting.

 

BTW, I have a first gen DJI Phantom 1 and have only used it 3 times. Just never get enough time off work get use to it. Have

a Go pro 2 for it.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Jim Kallinen

[criley]

The last paper from the FAA that I read was an exception the was not fully granted to the applicant who wanted to use the drone for his real estate business. It is very vague but shows some promises. I believe it said there was only 5 exceptions granted as of the writing of the document which was a few months ago.

Under the ruling for the exception, the altitude is listed as 300 feet and must be flown by a licensed pilot holding at least a PPL with a current medical. There were other requirements such as having a qualified observer to make sure the from stays within line of site, the pilot must have something like 25 hours of training flying that particular drone and the drone also needs to meet certain requirements that the phantom 2 has. I'm not sure about the other units. The biggest thing that has kept me from purchasing one is the fact that if I crash this toy in my own backyard even if it hits a tree or the sidewalk, I have to report the accident to the NTSB that I crashed my toy. I don't want an incident on my pilot license record.

The requirements will change multiple times in the future once all the bugs are worked out, but the FAA had to start somewhere.

Sent via Taptalk. System specs: OS-Windows 8, MB-Gigabyte Z87X OC Force, Processor-4770K, GC-PNY 780 Ti, RAM-16Gb.

[Oliver]

Best info in the world about commercial drone use can be found by signing up for this forum.

Many commercial users and knowledgeable users here. Been a member for the past 10 years.

 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php

 

This thread is the most useful one since it directly covers your issue. But with 501 pages to view, use the search function.

 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1703587

 

After reading some of that thread, you might have to filter out the BS to get any real info, more pissed piss off users posting.

 

BTW, I have a first gen DJI Phantom 1 and have only used it 3 times. Just never get enough time off work get use to it. Have

a Go pro 2 for it.

 

Thank you very much for the insight, Jim. I perused through some of the pages of the forum but will definitely sign up and try to read the majority of them. 

 

The last paper from the FAA that I read was an exception the was not fully granted to the applicant who wanted to use the drone for his real estate business. It is very vague but shows some promises. I believe it said there was only 5 exceptions granted as of the writing of the document which was a few months ago.

Under the ruling for the exception, the altitude is listed as 300 feet and must be flown by a licensed pilot holding at least a PPL with a current medical. There were other requirements such as having a qualified observer to make sure the from stays within line of site, the pilot must have something like 25 hours of training flying that particular drone and the drone also needs to meet certain requirements that the phantom 2 has. I'm not sure about the other units. The biggest thing that has kept me from purchasing one is the fact that if I crash this toy in my own backyard even if it hits a tree or the sidewalk, I have to report the accident to the NTSB that I crashed my toy. I don't want an incident on my pilot license record.

The requirements will change multiple times in the future once all the bugs are worked out, but the FAA had to start somewhere.

Sent via Taptalk. System specs: OS-Windows 8, MB-Gigabyte Z87X OC Force, Processor-4770K, GC-PNY 780 Ti, RAM-16Gb.

That's definitely my biggest fear as well. I'm planning to start an aviation company and I want to avoid any potential mishaps that could affect my current (and future) relationship with the FAA. 

[criley]

That's definitely my biggest fear as well. I'm planning to start an aviation company and I want to avoid any potential mishaps that could affect my current (and future) relationship with the FAA.

 

Yeah, I don't want to be the "Test Pilot" (Pun Intended) for this. I think there will be a rocky road before they pave the way. The person who was fined $10,000 for flying that so called drone on the college campus was the first test case and unfortunately for him, the FAA ruling was reversed yet again to force him to pay the fine. If you are going to do it, I would take the same route as the agent did and get an exception directly approved for you by the FAA so you will have a clear understanding for your circumstances. I too was about to purchase a few of these drones (Phantom 2 and Inspire) as they are ones that are approved. But for the realistic $5k a piece it will cost to get them properly geared plus what ever layer fees you will need to have someone represent you to get the exception and the insurance costs for flying them.... Although I am wondering if my insurance from AOPA will cover drones, hhhmmmmmm.... I am not sure it is the right time to be diving in the waters. For real estate, I think it is just going to be a FAD for the most part, but to be able to capitalize on this would be great assuming there is a profit to be made after all expenses are paid for. I am thinking that in another 3-5 years we will have a better understanding and the regulations will be created that will make it more reasonable for the lay person to fly these. There is a misconception that this has anything to do with commercial use. The FAA has defined the Drones to be Aircraft meaning that  the regs pertain to them period, recreational or commercial.

 

Again, I am saying regulations, but to my knowledge there are no regulations about the drones or even what the definition of a drone is. So any model plane right now could be considered a Drone until the FAA comes out with the actual definition and regulations on such. If you were to purchase a small RC helicopter from the kiosk of a mall or toy store and fly it around your house and then crash it into a person or car that is driving and cause an accident, rest assured that there is a good chance you will be in front of the FAA and the NTSB trying to explain yourself and they will be asking for your pilots license. Is it absurd, maybe, but it is real. I am not sure if I really want to take this chance and unfortunately most will think it's a toy and try to claim ignorance which may well be true, but again, I don't want to be the test case. I think the first thing that needs to happen is that the stores selling these aircraft need to provide some sort of disclaimer with the purchase of such aircraft to cover their buts and to educate the public who would treat it as a toy. maybe grandpa will think twice before he buys his 12 year old grandson a neat quad copter for his birthday. Meanwhile, the parents will think it's cool until he damages something or kills someone and they have to pay the ultimate price. It is a great deal deeper then we can all imagine.

 

For now I will fly the real thing and think twice before I go flying at the local R/C club.

[Oliver]

Yeah, I don't want to be the "Test Pilot" (Pun Intended) for this. I think there will be a rocky road before they pave the way. The person who was fined $10,000 for flying that so called drone on the college campus was the first test case and unfortunately for him, the FAA ruling was reversed yet again to force him to pay the fine. If you are going to do it, I would take the same route as the agent did and get an exception directly approved for you by the FAA so you will have a clear understanding for your circumstances. I too was about to purchase a few of these drones (Phantom 2 and Inspire) as they are ones that are approved. But for the realistic $5k a piece it will cost to get them properly geared plus what ever layer fees you will need to have someone represent you to get the exception and the insurance costs for flying them.... Although I am wondering if my insurance from AOPA will cover drones, hhhmmmmmm.... I am not sure it is the right time to be diving in the waters. For real estate, I think it is just going to be a FAD for the most part, but to be able to capitalize on this would be great assuming there is a profit to be made after all expenses are paid for. I am thinking that in another 3-5 years we will have a better understanding and the regulations will be created that will make it more reasonable for the lay person to fly these. There is a misconception that this has anything to do with commercial use. The FAA has defined the Drones to be Aircraft meaning that  the regs pertain to them period, recreational or commercial.

 

Again, I am saying regulations, but to my knowledge there are no regulations about the drones or even what the definition of a drone is. So any model plane right now could be considered a Drone until the FAA comes out with the actual definition and regulations on such. If you were to purchase a small RC helicopter from the kiosk of a mall or toy store and fly it around your house and then crash it into a person or car that is driving and cause an accident, rest assured that there is a good chance you will be in front of the FAA and the NTSB trying to explain yourself and they will be asking for your pilots license. Is it absurd, maybe, but it is real. I am not sure if I really want to take this chance and unfortunately most will think it's a toy and try to claim ignorance which may well be true, but again, I don't want to be the test case. I think the first thing that needs to happen is that the stores selling these aircraft need to provide some sort of disclaimer with the purchase of such aircraft to cover their buts and to educate the public who would treat it as a toy. maybe grandpa will think twice before he buys his 12 year old grandson a neat quad copter for his birthday. Meanwhile, the parents will think it's cool until he damages something or kills someone and they have to pay the ultimate price. It is a great deal deeper then we can all imagine.

 

For now I will fly the real thing and think twice before I go flying at the local R/C club.

I wholeheartedly agree. My only bother with the pilot license requirement is that a drone and an airplane are two entirely different flying machines. Granted, I believe their motive behind the requirement is so that the PIC of the drone actually has aeronautical knowledge of airspaces and such.

I feel like it would be even harder to claim ignorance if you're already a licensed pilot. For some reason, although more experienced and knowledgeable, I think that a pilot would get nailed harder than a non-pilot in case of an accident. 

I'd love to fly it above Sarasota Bay and the city... but if I do end up taking the plunge I'm solely going to fly it around the properties for sale and keep it on a very tight leash. 

[eaglewing7]

I've made my views on drones/UAS/UAVs known on other forums, suffice it to say that I am in favour of these devices being regulated.  But I do believe there should be a line drawn between commercial and private use, but any regulator has to ensure that private owners do not begin using their drones for commercial purposes, etc...

 

I also look at it from the point of a aeroplane pilot, where I want any device that can pose a significant threat to safety, to be regulated in a way that protects myself and others.  There have been too many cases where drones have been flown well into the approach paths at many airports, and conflicted with jet and other aircraft traffic.  

 

But I digress...

 

Here is something that I came across, just received it in the daily Vertical Magazine email:

 

http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/30405

[Nicola_M]

I wholeheartedly agree. My only bother with the pilot license requirement is that a drone and an airplane are two entirely different flying machines. Granted, I believe their motive behind the requirement is so that the PIC of the drone actually has aeronautical knowledge of airspaces and such.

I feel like it would be even harder to claim ignorance if you're already a licensed pilot. For some reason, although more experienced and knowledgeable, I think that a pilot would get nailed harder than a non-pilot in case of an accident. 

I'd love to fly it above Sarasota Bay and the city... but if I do end up taking the plunge I'm solely going to fly it around the properties for sale and keep it on a very tight leash. 

 

I think it's more about having a level of intelligence and responsibility than aeronautical knowledge. They're trying to weed out the type who thinks it's funny to stick a firework up a cat's backside, or whose favourite line is "watch this!"

As an rc heli pilot of 7yrs, I've watched from across the pond how the FAA wasn't going to be happy until the rc hobby was gone. And that was really before quads came along.

Then FPV arrived and suddenly idiots could fly beyond line of sight and wham, that got the FAA the excuse they needed and now you've got the rules you have.  And that's just the beginning.

 

I've also watched it with interest because - from the other end of the scale - the legislation really started here in the UK. It's £200 for a commercial licence (to film something), with something like 30 days notice, and there are so many conditions such as not within 50 metres/150ft of buildings, people, vessels etc.  And you need to apply (and pay) for each incident.

The cost is minimal compared to yours, but the rules are just as restrictive to the point where many would just say Why Bother?

From the outlay you mentioned, is a real estate video really going to bring you enough income in to even cover its costs?

 

Oh by the way, if the FAA follows the CAA route, "commercial" means use in the commission of a business. Strap a camera to your drone and take vids for your personal album, that's non-commercial. Use it to take videos that are clearly for (your) business's gain, then it's commercial.  It'll be a miracle if the FAA see it any other way.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Nicola_M

[Oliver]

I think it's more about having a level of intelligence and responsibility than aeronautical knowledge. They're trying to weed out the type who thinks it's funny to stick a firework up a cat's backside, or whose favourite line is "watch this!"

As an rc heli pilot of 7yrs, I've watched from across the pond how the FAA wasn't going to be happy until the rc hobby was gone. And that was really before quads came along.

Then FPV arrived and suddenly idiots could fly beyond line of sight and wham, that got the FAA the excuse they needed and now you've got the rules you have.  And that's just the beginning.

 

I've also watched it with interest because - from the other end of the scale - the legislation really started here in the UK. It's £200 for a commercial licence (to film something), with something like 30 days notice, and there are so many conditions such as not within 50 metres/150ft of buildings, people, vessels etc.  And you need to apply (and pay) for each incident.

The cost is minimal compared to yours, but the rules are just as restrictive to the point where many would just say Why Bother?

From the outlay you mentioned, is a real estate video really going to bring you enough income in to even cover its costs?

 

Oh by the way, if the FAA follows the CAA route, "commercial" means use in the commission of a business. Strap a camera to your drone and take vids for your personal album, that's non-commercial. Use it to take videos that are clearly for (your) business's gain, then it's commercial.  It'll be a miracle if the FAA see it any other way.

 

Then it goes far past the definition of the commercial... for example, if a non-commercial pilot flies his friend around at a cost of $500, he must pay the pro rata share with his copilot. Now, what if his friend decided to "gift" him $500 because of their wonderful friendship? In theory, this isn't gain or compensation for the flight, but with common sense, this is clearly gain or compensation. 

The main purpose of the videos would be to showcase the homes. We deal with clients in France (we're located in Florida) so videos can be essential to sell clients on these investment properties. I'd be interested to see what the process is behind getting authorization for a commercial flight. Perhaps I'll call the local FAA office and get more info. 

[Nicola_M]

Then it goes far past the definition of the commercial... for example, if a non-commercial pilot flies his friend around at a cost of $500, he must pay the pro rata share with his copilot. Now, what if his friend decided to "gift" him $500 because of their wonderful friendship? In theory, this isn't gain or compensation for the flight, but with common sense, this is clearly gain or compensation. 

The main purpose of the videos would be to showcase the homes. We deal with clients in France (we're located in Florida) so videos can be essential to sell clients on these investment properties. I'd be interested to see what the process is behind getting authorization for a commercial flight. Perhaps I'll call the local FAA office and get more info. 

 

If you honestly believe making a commmercial video for a commercial company that you own isn't commercial, then you have a lot to learn.  It's not about money changing hands, it's about pecuniary gain that defines the act as being commercial.

Real estate has sold perfectly well for decades without videos. Just saying the pecuniary gains of making a real estate video are far outweighed by the red tape you have to beat just to get off the ground.

We've got less rules than you, and there isn't exactly a queue of people rushing into the take-videos-for-real-estate business.  Probably because there's no more money in it than the real-estate-without-video business.

 

Also "We"?? How many of you are doing this?

Edited February 5, 2015 by Nicola_M

[Oliver]

If you honestly believe making a commmercial video for a commercial company that you own isn't commercial, then you have a lot to learn.  It's not about money changing hands, it's about pecuniary gain that defines the act as being commercial.

Real estate has sold perfectly well for decades without videos. Just saying the pecuniary gains of making a real estate video are far outweighed by the red tape you have to beat just to get off the ground.

We've got less rules than you, and there isn't exactly a queue of people rushing into the take-videos-for-real-estate business.  Probably because there's no more money in it than the real-estate-without-video business.

 

Also "We"?? How many of you are doing this?

I never said it didn't, but if you fly in real life you'll understand that although the FAA is clear on the laws of commercial flights there are still legal ways to bypass them. I'm not saying I have before, but I can definitely assure you that the FAA will not be able to prove a correlation between your flight and your friend gifting you $500. As aforementioned, it'll be clear, but there won't be any direct proof that the flight was actually compensated.

I learn every day, that's why I came to this forum (and others) to ask for advice. Perhaps since you aren't in the real estate market or in the business world you don't see that evolution is necessary in any market in order for it to continue growing... Much like in this case. Real estate has sold for decades because drones weren't around to provide aerial shots of properties. When the transition began in the aviation market from props to jets, I'm sure many people believed that it wasn't necessary because props were able to get the job done. It's the evolution of the market. In such a competitive world (real estate), if you don't differentiate yourself from your competitors, it's highly likely that you'll be blown under the rug by your competition. Also, perhaps in your area there isn't a demand, we're based in Florida where you have properties located right on some of the most beautiful beaches in the world. A lot of our french clients purchase the investment properties purely by looking at the pictures we send them. Most don't even come visit the properties. A video would be a huge selling point because pictures can only speak so many words.

I digress...

As aforementioned, the reason I'm coming here is to get advice on how to do this operation LEGALLY. Clearly I could have already gone out, bought a Phantom 2, jeopardized my licenses and future with the FAA, but I didn't. 

We = the company. I'm the only one with licenses.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Oliver

[Nicola_M]

Hmm, you seem to ask how to do things legally, but aren't able to take on board that dubious practices don't always equal legal.

Just because you don't feel the FAA could prove that $500 into your account on the same day is payment for flight, you'd better hope they could never access your company files then. 

Have you any idea how this comes across? 

"Mr Carozzi flew Photographer X on Monday, and the following day Mr Carozzi's account received $500."

"In fact, every time Mr Carozzi flew Photographer X, $500 mysteriously appeared in Mr Carozzi's account the next day.  Very convenient, that."

See where I'm going?  Imagine that's a jury, or someone within the FAA putting forward the case to his Director for reasons for your arrest.

Just saying, your version of adhering to the rules seems to be along the lines of if you can bend them a little.

 

Aaah.  The royal "We."  In other words, just you.  I thought so.

[Nicola_M]

Perhaps since you aren't in the real estate market or in the business world you don't see that evolution is necessary in any market in order for it to continue growing...

 

You don't get it, kid.  You don't have a market.  The FAA kicked the rug out from under you.  

[Oliver]

You don't get it, kid.  You don't have a market.  The FAA kicked the rug out from under you.  

I never said that I do adhere by such practices, I simply said that they do occur far more than you can imagine and that hundreds of people get away with them because of the lack of proof that can be determined.

I truly do appreciate the kind words, nonetheless. As far as me stating "We", it's because I don't feel the need to justify myself, my companies, or any personal matter to someone like you. The company has more than myself but it isn't relevant to the conversation at hand.

Believe it or not, the majority of the time, making assumptions can make you look like a monumental imbecile. Perhaps you could remember that next time you assume things about one's life.

Cameron/Other admins: Feel free to close this thread, I've received the necessary advice from informative and intelligent forum members. 

[Nicola_M]

Believe it or not, the majority of the time, making assumptions can make you look like a monumental imbecile.

Yes, you've demonstrated that. Good luck with your real estate drone "business."

i'm done. You're not intelligent enough to understand within five years no one will be flying drones, the FAA will see to that.  Heck, it's your/daddy's money, knock yourself out.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Nicola_M

[Cameron]

Getting a little out of hand, guys. Going to close this thread.