Asiana Airlines 777 crash at SFO

[Orcair]

And the reputation of Asiana Airlines is ruined. At least in America...

While this might be true now in a couple of months people will forget about it. When they go to expedia to book the cheapest flight they can to Seoul, which is on Asiana, they do not give the screeen a second glance.

[SwissCyul]

As I departed SFO, on my left was the smoldering remains of an Asiana 777. On the right was a taxiing Asiana 777. The irony was sickening 

 

And you know that they are going to receive 5 A380's in two years....

[SwissCyul]

While this might be true now in a couple of months people will forget about it. When they go to expedia to book the cheapest flight they can to Seoul, which is on Asiana, they do not give the screeen a second glance.

 

Yep very true. If we would avoid airlines that had crashes in the last years, we wouldn't be flying anywhere. 

[Peter T.]

Asiana Airlines is a pretty young airline compared to others.... they have 3 major incidents, and the 777 is their first pilot error related incident.... The others are bad weather and cargo fire.

[SwissCyul]

Asiana Airlines is a pretty young airline compared to others.... they have 3 major incidents, and the 777 is their first pilot error related incident.... The others are bad weather and cargo fire.

We will just have to wait and see 

[Andyrooc]

Nice little simulation: http://vimeo.com/70167988#

[Peter T.]

there is already an updated version (ver 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXCwI6a1DqI

[Norman]

And the reputation of Asiana Airlines is ruined. At least in America...

 

Not only in America. here in Europe too.

[SwissCyul]

Not only in America. here in Europe too.

Well probably everywhere... 

[Wall•E]

I was on Lisbon Airport, sitting in a café, when it came on the news. It was on for the rest of the evening.

[Carlos Garcia]

Some Answers

 

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/investigators-detail-flight-mode-changes-in-moments-prior-to-asiana-crash-394015/

[SwissCyul]

Nothing really new, but interesting. Thanks

[Nicola_M]

This sheds a bit more light on it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2522000/Asiana-pilot-landing-San-Francisco-stressful-worried-crash.html

 

* Meanwhilst, the captain of the plane has confessed to investigators he felt stressed out and was 'very concerned' about attempting a manual visual approach

* A former Boeing 777 foreign captain at Asiana told investigators he found it 'extremely difficult' to get pilots to fly visual approaches, and that they usually wanted to take off rather than land.

* it's not unusual for pilots to make a visual approach, using the view through their windshield. [as opposed to using instruments]

Looks like they should've employed any of us xplane users.  I know I can land an airliner on that runway perfectly well, and I'm a helicopter fan.

[SwissCyul]

Well,

 

flying the real thing and flying in X-Plane is something else...

But they really should look over their training procedures  

[eaglewing7]

I'd say the majority of simulator pilots could have easily done as piss poor a job, if not better than this acting captain did.  But then again, I would not want any of you guys in the cockpit if I was sitting in back.  

 

I laughed when I read that the captain was a highly experienced 747 pilot, but was just in the training phase on the 777.  First of all, I would bet he was just as awful at hand flying the 747, but probably never had the opportunity/excuse to crash one.  Second, an aeroplane is an airplane, is an aeroplane.  Your 747 is just as conventional an aircraft as the 777, fundamentally it is like a big 172, but I guarantee this pilot could not land one without full three axis autopilot and an ILS.

 

Recently, I was talking to a Class 1 instructor, about an idea I had, which involves training ab-initio student pilots on taildraggers.  It worked through the early days of flying, and the Second World War proved that training on behemoth single and multi-engined taildraggers can make exceptional pilots.  But, around 1950 the first mass produced tricycle geared aircraft began being produced, and some time around 1970 they started becoming the norm, as regulators got lazier and decided it was just easier, and thus safer, to train with the training wheels on.  But I digress...

[Nicola_M]

If you can land a heavy in a sim, then you could do so in real life quite capably. If you're not smearing yourself across a runway every day then:: -

 

1. You already know the layout and where switches are.

2. You already know what speed and height is right, and what is wrong.

3. You already know how how look out of the window and do VFR approaches (we all start off doing them)

4. (advanced) You already know how to do ILS approaches.

 

I'm a heli pilot, but even I can do VFR hand-flown landings on most heavies (I actually prefer it to ILS) and only when I have the time and inclination, I practise ILS approaches and landings.

 

The issue is that even these idiots could not master VFR between them and that's the issue at Asiana.  If they couldn't do an ILS, they were up shit creek.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Nicola_M

[eaglewing7]

I've mentioned before that I have flown with an Englishman, who in my opinion is an amazing instructor.  At one time he was instructing over in China, and this is something he wrote on another forum about SOPs that were being used, and really abused if you consider the absurdity of what we are talking about.

 

And I quote:

 

 

 

There were huge problems in China and it has led me to question anything a US FAA school teaches.

This was American Part 141 with the students learning SOPs that contained the attitudes shown on the G1000's PFD!



From the SOPs:

Quote:

Steep Turns



HASELL, not below 500m, speed below Va (95 – 100 KIAS), 19” 2,300 RPM, add 2” when entering, entryATT +5 deg, 3 deg during turn, out 1 deg. Anticipate rollout when magenta touches HDG bug.

I added the "deg" words as the symbol for degrees was changed copying it over.



Here's the circuit SOP:

Quote:

Normal Takeoff



Line up, apply full power – 3 seconds, T’s + P’s, airspeed alive, 2,600 RPM minimum, rotate @ 59 KIAS, ATT +8 deg, pitch rate 3deg/second. Target 75 – 80 KIAS.



At 200m (120m AGL)



Flaps Up, 25”/2,500 RPM, 80 KIAS, ATT 8 deg, fuel pump off, T’s + P’s, fuel flow green.

(25”/2,500 RPM is the power setting for a Piper Arrow and is not in the DA40 AFM!)



Crosswind



Level off, set PWR 21”/2,300RPM, turn downwind relative angle 30 - 45 deg.

Downwind



Height HDG Spacing, BUMFISH

Abeam TDZ PWR 18”, reduce SPD and trim

Level turn onto base



Base



Lookout, PWR 15”, adjust for wind. Turn and make radio call, Flaps T/O, trim, 80 KIAS, ATT - 3 deg.

Don’t initiate DES before TGT SPD +5 Kt.

Judge need for Flaps LDG, ATT - 5 deg.



Final



Anticipate turn, not lower than 150m, 75 KIAS, 70 KIAS short final.

Mixture, Prop, Fuel Pump.

I disagreed totally with the concept of teaching students to fly with the G1000 at the expense of looking outside.

I dimmed the PFD and switched the MFD to traffic... All my students who began this way had no trouble looking out even when the distracting G1000 was turned on.

 

 

Odds are, this was about the method that this crew was trained under.  SOP every aspect of flying to death, teach to the bare minimums, fly the bare minimum of hours, and get a licence, rating, etc.  

 

I find it absolutely friggin frightening that there are people out there who need an ocean of glass in front of them, to fly around in VMC.  Look outside, shit - at the very least for the scenery, let alone traffic avoidance, proper map navigation, etc.

 

Back on November 26, 2012, I was on final approach at 700' landing at CYCW, in the Citabria.  I had made all of the requisite traffic calls (CYCW is an uncontrolled field with an aerodrome traffic frequency), and one or two extra, as there was a Cessna 152 in the circuit doing circuits.  Anyway, on final, at 700', I've got the aircraft trimmed out at 70 MPH IAS, I make my final approach check, and settle in for a three point landing, and I'm thinking about what flavour of pie to get as a snack, but I digress.  I hear the other aircraft call turning base, so, okay, he will be behind me, no problem.  Suddenly, I see a silver and white 152 turning in front of me, at my two o'clock, and maybe 1000 feet away.  Full power, stick back, full right aileron, and stand the ol'gal on her side and make a right hand 360°.  Promptly ream the SOB out over the radio for cutting me off, land normally.  What the hell was this guy doing, in the circuit, at an uncontrolled airport?  But, once again, I digress.

[Liner45]