(Auto-)throttle problem

[martinlest]

Nice flight earlier... until I came to land: I could not turn off the auto-throttle, (so of course the a/c didn't slow down). Tried (firstly), near to flare, using the joystick button assigned to 'Disengage AT', my usual method, but the AT switch remained where it was. I pulled down the AT switch in the cockpit (and/or used the disconnect on the throttle) - the AT switch moved down.. but still the a/c wouldn't decelerate (autobrakes were armed). Moved the throttles from idle up to full and back to idle... no help. 

Searched all the IXEG pdf files, online... found nothing that helped. This has happened a couple of times over the past few days (I have been flying the 733 for most of my flights). Had something gone wrong with the a/c and/or XP at that time, or am I actually doing something wrong? Is the 'Disconnect AT' function dependent upon other variables, or should it disconnect no matter what (I assume)? I have tried setting a different switch for the command, but it still doesn't do anything. It used to work OK...

Thank you. I don't know why all of a sudden I am having these problems with the 733... all becomes very frustrating after a while (and am then tempted to give up and go and watch TV instead), whatever the cause (even if it's me! Especially if it is me, in fact!).

Edited November 15, 2020 by martinlest

[Litjan]

Go ahead and doublecheck your button bindings. Test the disconnect of the A/T switch while you are sitting on the ground, not during final approach...that is a bit late to find out that your keybinding isn´t correct.

For realistic operation do not turn off the autothrottle switch, just disengage the speed mode (there is a command for that as well). This way the A/T switch stays on, so you can use the A/T in case of a go-around. It will automatically switch to OFF about 2 secs after touchdown.

Make sure you have the right "throttle option" selected - due to the improvements for VR pilots there is also now an option to NOT SHOW the ghost throttles, this makes aligning your hardware throttle a bit more difficult.

I am not quite sure what is going on with your joystick, but (fortunately) you are the only one experiencing these kind of problems . It is possible that your X52 software is somehow acting up and interfering with normal X-Plane interaction. In my experience it is never a good idea to use the software for joysticks and hotas setups, they only add an additional layer of complexity and default Windows can recognize and interpret the signals of most hardware just fine.

Cheers, Jan

 

 

[martinlest]

Quote

... you are the only one experiencing these kind of problems

Well, that always seems to be the way with me!! 

The Disconnect AT doesn't work at any stage - at least it very occasionally works, but mostly doesn't (which is odd in itself). Same problem whichever Saitek button I bind the command to. I don't have any Saitek software (apart from the driver) installed.. it doesn't work properly in XP11 (as you say) so there's no point. 

Quote

Make sure you have the right "throttle option" selected

In other words, the white 'box' is aligned with 'A/T' in the ghost throttles? How would I see that I have the right throttle option at any given time, if I did not have the ghost throttles active? Given the symptoms I described (the a/c does not decelerate at all after landing) does that suggest that I have this wrong as I land, in some way? 

I am in mid-flight in the sim as I type this... I'll try setting my 'Disconnect AT' command to 'Toggle speed mode' (that's the one you must mean?), instead and see how that goes...

Thank you for the help Jan! I seem to have a lot of posts and issues at the moment - mostly because I have decided to fly the 733 for all my XP flights this week and am hitting repeated issues which I had I just put down to being a 'one off glitch' previously. Don't mean to 'hog' your time and bandwidth!! 

Edited November 15, 2020 by martinlest

[martinlest]

Oh god, this is still a disaster.... as I try in vain to decelerate to taxi speed, if I look down at the pedestal my throttle levers are frozen to maximum (full forward) and no matter what I do I cannot get them to move... the a/c will start to slow down but then accelerate again in the meantime, until I run out of runway. Something basic is very wrong, but after several flights, the ending is always the same in the 733. The throttles were responsive until touchdown.. 

I set my X52 button to 'toggle speed mode' but it doesn't have any effect either.

I am sometimes tempted, but have so far resisted the temptation, to pick my PC up and throw it out the window. I know I am not alone in getting that feeling....

Edited November 15, 2020 by martinlest

[Litjan]

Hmm, I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding how the autothrust modes work in the 737 at play, here - combined with confusion of how to regain control of the thrust levers once the autothrottle does not control them anymore.

I would suggest watching some of the tutorial videos I made (you can fast-forward to the relevant sections of approach, for example) to see how it is supposed to work and then try to get the same commands working on your joystick buttons.

It is imperative that you check the FMA (flight mode annunciator) labels in your EADI - the leftmost will tell you the mode the autothrottle is operating in (ARM, THR HOLD, N1, GA, RETARD, etc.). You can not control your thrust manually unless that leftmost column is in ARM or totally blank.

Cheers, Jan

 

[martinlest]

Quote

 I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding how the autothrust modes work in the 737

Well I can only agree with you - of how they work in the IXEG 733, at least - which may well be a lot closer to reality than any other 737 I fly, or I have flown, I freely acknowledge: those include Zibo's 737-800 and previously, in FS9/FSX, PMDG models: none of those being known for their slapdash programming! And of course, those aircraft are not 737-300s, I am well aware (though how differently the autothrottle operates in say the 733 and the 738, I am not sure... yet).

What I don't understand (one of the things!) is why these problems with the IXEG 733 are happening now, when for months I flew it with pretty much no issues at all. Has an update (11.50?) introduced improvements that could have brought this about? I can't simply have 'forgotten' how to fly the a/c, I wouldn't have thought.

I need to do more test flights (this a/c, above almost all my other payware XP aircraft, is worth the input - I have always loved flying it!). Yes, I will watch the tutorial videos you mention before I try any more flights (I guess they are on this site, or YouTube?? No doubt I'll find them soon enough).

EDIT: These three, I guess you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfK3AKQYD8o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9qNYUEWVxc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ8QdmNMm-E

But first of all, I need to work out why I can no longer, apparently, successfully bind commands (IXEG-specific, it seems - most general commands seem to be working OK) to my Saitek X52 - they used to work just fine. They show in the menu, but don't work in the sim 

Thank you for sticking with this Jan. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by martinlest

[Litjan]

Yes, those videos should show that critical sequence.

Basically you need to disengage the MCP SPD mode (you can also do this by clicking on the SPEED button on the MCP or bind a custom command to it). Then you will see the green FMA in the EADI go from MCP SPD to ARM. Now you move your hardware throttle and should see the "ghost throttles" appear - when they match up, you can see the thrust levers in the virtual cockpit become "in sync" with your hardware throttle again and you have manual control.

It is puzzling that your X52 does not trigger those commands reliably. Yes, I have added many more commands in one of the recent updates, but those ones have not changed, I think.

Here is what the EADI should look like after moving the AT switch up to ARM:

Here is what the MCP looks like after engaging the MCP SPEED mode:

Here is what the EADI looks like after engaging the MCP SPEED mode:

Here is the command you must set up to disengage the MCP SPEED mode prior to manual landing:

And here is the cockpit after you disengaged the MCP SPD mode and are trying to syncronize the thrust levers of your joystick with the "ghost throttle":

Notice how the MCP SPD in the EADI changed to ARM again and the two white "throttle knob" frames on the right appear? You need to move your hardware throttle up until those two white frames match the two A/T grey throttle knobs above them.

Cheers, Jan

 

 

[martinlest]

Thank you very much for the screenshots - I really appreciate the time you are taking to help me with this.

[martinlest]

Just to update this, for anyone vaguely interested.... I've been testing on the ground to see why I cannot bring the throttles back to idle... your screenshots were helpful Jan: one reason was indeed that they were not quite in the right position, I was too 'approximate' - I was making the right gestures I think, but in my setup at least the white frames need to be pretty much spot on over the ghost A/T indicators to work.

The other issue is that I still cannot get any of my X52 buttons to work with the mapped commands - it's ridiculous. The joystick menu shows 'Toggle SPEED mode', but the mode in the a/c stays the same - if the green lights are on, they stay on, if they are off, they stay off. Well, no matter, I will just click on SPEED on the MCP instead. 

I am still nonplussed as to why this is a new problem for me this this plane, which I had flown many times... but best I move on and forget about what happened or didn't happen in the past. Hopefully, with a bit more experimentation, I can 'master' the throttles and A/T now... (and am going through the videos as well).

Thank you. Hope I have not tried anyone's patience too much!  

EDIT: And at last.. a flight with a perfect landing (at least I thought so!)  Oh, to get the X52 to use all the buttons for mappings, I removed the Saitek drivers too (I had thought removing the programming software was enough, but the drivers need to go too in XP).

Edited November 16, 2020 by martinlest

[Litjan]

One last thing that just came to my mind: Make sure that you are programming the X52 buttons using the correct "profile" - I have set up several profiles for different planes I use, but if you assign the wrong profile to be used with the IXEG you can program all you want, it won´t work.

Example: I have one profile called "single engine prop planes" - and another one "helicopters" - and then I set up in the joystick profile menu WHICH profile I want to use with WHICH aircraft. So if I fly the S-76, but have erroneously assigned "single engine prop planes" to this aircraft, I can change the buttons in the "helicopters" profile all I want, I will never see it in the S-76 (as it is not using the profile I am making changes to).

Cheers, Jan

 

[martinlest]

I usually check the profile before I fly - yes, it always shows my IXEG profile, no problem. 

Seems all is OK now, apart from that major issue of the a/c rolling over after takeoff - that's a separate thread of course. The A/T seems fine now that I have watched the videos and am more accurate in what I do! 

[martinlest]

Hi. Can I come back to this old  thread? For the past 18 months I have only been flying in VR, so I no longer see the ghost throttles at all in the cockpit (they are only visible on the monitor). So I cannot sync the hardware throttles with them - and all too often end up with 737 throttles that ignore all inputs from my Saitek hardware.

Irrespective of whose 'fault' this is, I must admit that I am now fed up with 737-300 flights ending in near crashes because, just when I need them most, I cannot control the throttles. The bottom line is that it is just not enjoyable flying this way and as much as I love the IXEG 733, I am put off from loading it up now, when so many of my flights end in near disaster because of this issue. Is there a way that I can turn this off, so that the throttles respond to my joystick as they do in any other aircraft I fly in XP11? 

I've watched and studied all the videos, but in VR it seems I am never going to get this working reliably. As I type this, my 733 is on the runway, just landed, and stuck: A/P is off, A/T & SPEED are off, F/D is off, I have matched the A/T ghosts by looking at my monitor, I have the correct profile and mappings... but my X52 throttles refuse to move those in the cockpit at all. After a two-hour flight, it's very frustrating.

Please, if I am not now just to put this aircraft in a retirement hangar, to avoid the frustration of all this, could someone kindly help me to remove this throttle locking 'feature'. (I have tried with the option 'Disable Ghost Throttles' checked, but the throttles still lock up. I don't know what 'Throttle mouse ops for VR' does, I can't find any reference to it anywhere, but I can try it anyway I guess. Maybe it will help (I don't use a mouse in VR)??).

Thank you!

Edited March 6, 2023 by martinlest

[tkyler]

16 hours ago, martinlest said:

Hi. Can I come back to this old  thread

I have made note of this thread on my 'list', so I can come back to it.    We are in the process of rewriting our preference system and its GUI interface.   This should provide the flexibility we need to address your issue (or so I believe at the moment).   We will certainly be reviewing your request and I believe we'll be able to arrive at a solution for you somehow.

As far as timing goes,  it will probably be 6-8 weeks before we even begin looking at our 'improvements' list....however, I will take a cursory look at this one before the XP12 update...as it may be an easy fix.  Either/or, we'll get it fixed at some point.  Thx for pointing it out.

-tkyler

[martinlest]

That's great, thank you. I have not moved over to XP12 (I only installed the demo), as the implementation of VR isn't as good as in XP11 yet (performance), at least on my setup, though I am sure Laminar will get there before too long; so I hope any fixes will go into the XP11 plane as well.

I have been flying nothing but the 737-300 for some days now, trying to get this to work. As it happens, my last flight, with both options 'Disable Ghost Throttles' and  'Throttle mouse ops for VR' checked, produced the desired results, at least on this most recent flight: I could control the throttles with my Saitek X52 as soon as I disengaged SPEED mode (and yes, A/T auto-disengaged on touchdown). Only one flight, but encouraging. I'll try another later..

Thanks again :-) 

Edited March 7, 2023 by martinlest

[Litjan]

Normally it is not necessary to "see" the ghost throttles to regain control of the thrust levers. You just need to have your hardware throttle be at the "same" position as the virtual throttle AND the throttle must not be under control of the autothrottle.

This is what confuses most users, they try to regain control but have not disengaged the autothrottle.

Once the autothrottle is disengaged, just move the hardware throttle over the full range of movement (from full forward to idle power) and you should "capture" the virtual throttle along the way somewhere.

A little more refined is the method as above, but move the hardware throttle slowly while watching your virtual throttles - as soon as they start to move, you know that you have regained control.

This is independent of using VR.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Litjan

[AngelOfAttack]

16 hours ago, Litjan said:

Once the autothrottle is disengaged, just move the hardware throttle over the full range of movement (from full forward to idle power) and you should "capture" the virtual throttle along the way somewhere.

A little more refined is the method as above, but move the hardware throttle slowly while watching your virtual throttles - as soon as they start to move, you know that you have regained control.

I think there is a potential failure mode on this:

If you got hardware throttle in like middle position, and software one on idle, and you somehow approach stall, the natural reaction is push throttle forward and simultaneously hit the disconnect button with thumb, in that case, if the software throttle not catch up, you'll loss precious few seconds before realize and try to catch the throttle up.

I haven't have this problem on IXEG733, but a had the exact issue in older version on Rotate MD11 which uses same mechanism, they then changed to sync softthrottle to hardware as soon as you disconnect A/T (not in "clamp" aka "THR HLD" mode). The "ghost" throttle is only use for visual reference before disconnect.

My advise is, in addition to current mechanism,  if you move throttle more than say 10% or an adjustable noise level after AT is off, sync the throttle immediately.

[Litjan]

There is also a potential - and much more likely - failure mode on your proposal.

Most of the time, people will NOT have their hardware throttle at the "approximately correct" position when they disconnect their autothrottle, they will simply forget to align it before disconnecting. Then they will disconnect, and it will cause their engines to either spool up to maximum power or loose thrust to idle...which will mess up their manual flight and especially on short final is hard to recover.

My advice to avoid YOUR potential failure mode is: Do not get into a situation where only adding full (overboosted) thrust will save the aircraft .

In "most" situations of "being a bad pilot" and being too slow, the reversion modes of the autopilot or autothrottle (if in arm) will kick in to save the aircraft. In other situations you can click the TO/GA buttons to advance power automatically to maximum GA thrust.

IF you ever get into a situation where you need to apply maximum thrust you need to remember to cycle the thrust levers from idle to full power once (which will take 0.5 seconds), but yes, you need to remember and this is different in the real aircraft. It is the compromise we have to make for not having motorized hardware throttles.

[AngelOfAttack]

2 minutes ago, Litjan said:

There is also a potential - and much more likely - failure mode on your proposal.

Most of the time, people will NOT have their hardware throttle at the "approximately correct" position when they disconnect their autothrottle, they will simply forget to align it before disconnecting. Then they will disconnect, and it will cause their engines to either spool up to maximum power or loose thrust to idle...which will mess up their manual flight and especially on short final is hard to recover.

My advice to avoid YOUR potential failure mode is: Do not get into a situation where only adding full (overboosted) thrust will save the aircraft .

In "most" situations of "being a bad pilot" and being too slow, the reversion modes of the autopilot or autothrottle (if in arm) will kick in to save the aircraft. In other situations you can click the TO/GA buttons to advance power automatically to maximum GA thrust.

IF you ever get into a situation where you need to apply maximum thrust you need to remember to cycle the thrust levers from idle to full power once (which will take 0.5 seconds), but yes, you need to remember and this is different in the real aircraft. It is the compromise we have to make for not having motorized hardware throttles.

I see, and for sure I only got near stall because that MD11's aerodynamic back then is not fine tuned so I'll go stall even at proper VREF.

But most add-on I have use is simply sync to hardware as soon as AT disconnect and any hardware input movement, so it's my second nature to match throttle before intentionally disconnect AT, on many add-on with EICAS display there it simply a "fake" indicator on engine display, for 733 without EICAS the "ghost" throttle UI is perfect for that.

So.. maybe make it an option?