Applied too much reverse thrust, plane tipped back and broke something

[Captain744]

Ferried by plane from tarbe in France to EGMC Southend airport. Slowly parked up the plane then applied reverse thrust to get the plane inline wit near parked planes. Well it didn’t end too well! The plane tipped back on the elevators and stayed there until I reapplied idle thrust. Damage taken was a cabin pressure vessel BROKEN and rudder and trim linkages BROKEN. Total cost of damages  to my brand new plane $74,000

I have a question? The plane tipping back on to the elevators and rudder, Is this a realistic action? Is reverse thrust that powerful? I only have me the pilot (90kilos) no luggage and about 3 quarters of fuel left on each wing. 

Iv just realised that there was a headwind of about 14 knots hitting the plane at about 5-10 degrees!!!!! Heading plus reverse thrust tipping the plane back?

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Captain744

[Goran_M]

14kt headwind is possibly enough to be able to do it to a TBM.

[Bryan @ The Aviation Agenc]

When I tested my reverse thruster the first time...  I totally flipped the plane... I had just landed... went max reverse... and boom ... flipped it ass down... crack.

Totalled it... broke the frame... the tail... the lights... the pressure cabin... banged up the wings... the gear.... 

... totally busted.

Ooops.

Thankfully my insurance covered it when I deleted the airframe and assigned a new one.

[Captain744]

hahahahhaha thanks Bryan. 

[Mateyhv]

First of all thanks for the excellent plane simulation Goran! Its absolutely fantastic.

I just happened to see this thread and recall the issue happening once during landing not sure its supposed to be a normal behaviour. Applied reverse during landing on the runway, the nose lifted and the plane ended standing on its tail until a full stop.  Hmmm...

[Bryan @ The Aviation Agenc]

On 12/12/2018 at 5:53 PM, Mateyhv said:

First of all thanks for the excellent plane simulation Goran! Its absolutely fantastic.

I just happened to see this thread and recall the issue happening once during landing not sure its supposed to be a normal behaviour. Applied reverse during landing on the runway, the nose lifted and the plane ended standing on its tail until a full stop.  Hmmm...

2

I've never flown a plane with reverse prop pitch... I've read Daher's manuals and studied how the sim reacts... 

The training from Daher is more focused on FOD and damage to your plane from the crap the prop kicks when beyond the beta position.... if you watch the video... basically you should apply reverse thrust to the point that the brakes can take over... so let's say you land at like 130 kts (which on some approaches I've tried to fly... like Aspen... you come in SUPER steep and hard) ... reverse thrust could bring you back to 60-70 kts very quickly... and then you beta pitch to zero and apply the brakes (at least that's what I took from watching the video). Ideally, if you're landing at like 90 knots... touchdown alone is usually enough for me... and since I typically am not landing on super short runways (3X 5X what I need to land usually)... I just let it bleed the airspeed off or I'll go light on reverse thrust until I drop below 70 and then taxi down a bit with light brake pressure... 

Since I haven't broken actual aircraft with max reverse... or even flown one... I have no idea if this is how it just is or what... 

All I have to go on is my understanding of the weight and balance and loading and how the thrust reverse works given this video (and some others). The fact that the actual TBM manual says like 9000 times... AVOID REVERSE DURING TAXI is probably an indication that you shouldn't go max reverse during taxi.

Every time I've let it go max reverse thrust after the plane gets under 30 kts ... I've crashed the stern on the ground... especially if I'm cargo heavy loaded (four pax of normal size with a 40# allotment of luggage gives you 200# in the back... quite easy to flip it then on max thrust below 50 kts ).

On landing, the instructions are all about bringing the plane as quickly as possible to BRAKE speed... which seems to be 70 kts or less. On snow or dirt runways... the manual suggests don't use the reversers at all unless you have to... and then, stop using them as quickly as possible... but definitely quit before reaching 40 kts.

I've done max reverse thrust for a few seconds after landing... slowed the plane down... and then brakes... no problem... if I'm taxing or stopping on the runway and I'm on max reverse... I always smash the stern into the ground.

 

[Mateyhv]

The TBM manual says many times not to reverse bellow 40kt or on snowy runway because of the increasing danger of ingesting foreign objects and damaging the turbine, its not because may pitch up the plane.

The problem is not the reverse itself, there is something weird with the plane load, or maybe the way XP interprets the loading. In flight I am almost running out of down trim without even loading the back seats or cargo area. That makes the front gear very light on the ground and any small bounce coupled with reverse rises the nose. Not sure if the real thing behaves that way or not.

[Bryan @ The Aviation Agenc]

I think the issue revolves around sending so much thrust under the wing... especially if you have flaps down from having just landed... and that airflow essentially causes the airfoil to pitch at the flap point or behind the wing. It lifts up the wheel... and since you're not actually "taking off" since the flow above the wing isn't going to be sufficient... it's like rotating before rotate speed and you just smash the butt on the tarmac. All that thrust going against the flaps then being directed downward causes the plane to want to rotate behind the gear... and boom - next thing you know you're poppin a wheelie and you smash the butt on the ground.

That make sense?
 

[Mateyhv]

On reverse you are actualy depleting the wing from airflow at least in real life. The problem is the CG is very close to the main wheel centerline and a slight bump on the runway plus the bouncy front suspension and some backward thrust aplied to the nose all that ends in a wheelie. The front wheel actuay looses contact with the ground even in normal taxi on a bumpy taxyway. I have XPrealistic installed and when I activated the front gear sound effect for touchdown, it tend to be played a lot during normal taxi so I ended up turning it off.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Mateyhv