Windows 10 and X-plane

[tobbe490]

Hallo,

Now I have Windows 8.0 and X-plane is working well. If I upgrade to Windows 10 would it affect X-plane and how?

[Jah]

I'm using Win10 since a few month now without any issues....

[mishaikin]

Hallo,

Now I have Windows 8.0 and X-plane is working well. If I upgrade to Windows 10 would it affect X-plane and how?

I installed win10 (linux user for most of the time) and couldn't get the ivao plugin to connect to the atc channels on Teamspeak2 using the plane's radio .... spent a few days on that problem.

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[Jah]

7 hours ago, mishaikin said:

 

I installed win10 (linux user for most of the time) and couldn't get the ivao plugin to connect to the atc channels on Teamspeak2 using the plane's radio .... spent a few days on that problem.

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Works fine for me.. seems to be an issue with your installation, not windows 10 in general...?

[mishaikin]

Works fine for me.. seems to be an issue with your installation, not windows 10 in general...?

Can't say. It was pretty clean installation with the whole purpose of having windows for the sake of ixeg imminent 737. I generally fly on linux and made that exception because ixeg doesn't like linux (users) but its addon seems promising :-) In ivao forum some people suggested the problem is related to using xplane in 64bit and TS2 being 32bit

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[Ben Russell]

I like Linux plenty.

I like Linux users plenty.

What I don't like, is working for free.

The sooner we can understand this and stop making stupid jabs and puns the better.

[mishaikin]

I like Linux plenty.

I like Linux users plenty.

What I don't like, is working for free.

The sooner we can understand this and stop making stupid jabs and puns the better.

Hi Ben, I pay for every addon I use, in linux. There are devs (Carenado, Alabeo, FF, Rotate ... ) that make planes compatible with all three platforms supported by x-plane and I buy from them. I will also buy the 737 when it is out though it will cause considerable inconvenience to me ;-) ...

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[Timendainum]

Quote

I like Linux plenty.

I like Linux users plenty.

What I don't like, is working for free.

The sooner we can understand this and stop making stupid jabs and puns the better.

I'm not even sure what argument you are trying to make here? What, linux users don't pay for things? Can you clarify your position?

Seems to me, I've paid for numerous pay aircraft, plugins and xplane itself. I think the point the poster above was making is that most of us linux users are forced to run windows to use a good deal of products because add on companies don't know how to use cross compilers, or are to lazy to do so.

I don't see how running linux at all implies that linux users are not willing to pay for payware products.

Your comments here seem misinformed, or ignorant. Not sure which. Please clarify your position.

 

I am going to suggest that the add on developers for any and all flight sim related products start reading articles like this:

http://betanews.com/2016/03/04/windows-10-universal-windows-platform-monopoly/

Microsoft is working on taking 30% of your GM from you. In nitch markets like flight simming this is going to push a lot of you guys out of business. You might want to consider starting to support platforms that are not looking at shutting you out of the marketplace. Because if you think Microsoft or Apple aren't closing the door on you, you need to open your eyes.

Of course, unless you want to take a 30% pay cut, and be subservient to the Microsoft's of the world.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Timendainum

[Ben Russell]

We build and price things at a given price point based on a set of numbers that we can expect to sell to.

That set of numbers is instantly reduced by 97% simply by talking about Linux.

From there it's reduced _again_ by about another 90% because only a small fraction of the small fraction of Linux users will actually buy anything.

 

Economies of scale. Figure it out.

To be viable, I could release a Linux plugin with a retail price point of $2000+ _each_ per user and I'd _STILL_ lose money. Even if you all bought copies.

 

Very basic economics.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Ben Russell

[Ben Russell]

Given the choice between making 1% more money and doing _literally anything else_ that isn't work, what would you honestly do?

It's a pretty easy choice for me. I go spend time living.

[mishaikin]

Ben, I am not sure what you are implying by that only a small fraction of linux user will buy your addon? Is it of all the people in the world who use linux but are not sim enthusiasts? And is it the word pirate that comes into mind? Because of all linux xplane users all interested in jets will buy it, I don't know other way and that may be a few hundreds linux xplane users. If you imply pirating, then this is very ugly. Usually windows type of people come to ask for help with a pirated addons and it is very shameful when they share their logs ... Anyway, your words are so greedy and offensive that I just decided that will not buy ixeg737 though I have windows10 installed, not until it becomes crossplatform as the the xplane itself. I have lived until now without it, not big deal, we are not even sure how good it is, only advertisements and insults ....

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[Ben Russell]

I make no assertions about piracy at all.

This comes down to pure economic reality.

You want me to work for you, the collective Linux user community, at below market rate. And be happy about it.

And I'm the rude one?

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ben Russell

[Ben Russell]

Gross simplification;

New feature.
One week work to add for each OS.

Cost:
Windows: $2,000 labour.
Mac: $2,000 labour.
Linux: $2,000 labour.

Sales:

2,000 copies at $4 license fee per copy.

$6,000 cost. $8,000 return. $2,000 profit.

Break down:

Windows: 1,000 copies. $4,000 return. $2,000 profit. Good result.

Mac: 940 copies. $3,760 return. $1760 profit. Good result.

Linux: 60 copies. $240 return. -$1760 loss. Bad result.

 

So...

In this grossly simplified example, in order to provide Linux support I have to work on both Mac and Linux _for free_.

Windows is the only user base left making the entire operation feasible at all.

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

 

[Cameron]

Ben, I am not sure what you are implying by that only a small fraction of linux user will buy your addon? Is it of all the people in the world who use linux but are not sim enthusiasts? And is it the word pirate that comes into mind? Because of all linux xplane users all interested in jets will buy it, I don't know other way and that may be a few hundreds linux xplane users. If you imply pirating, then this is very ugly. Usually windows type of people come to ask for help with a pirated addons and it is very shameful when they share their logs ... Anyway, your words are so greedy and offensive that I just decided that will not buy ixeg737 though I have windows10 installed, not until it becomes crossplatform as the the xplane itself. I have lived until now without it, not big deal, we are not even sure how good it is, only advertisements and insults ....

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What a wild post. Ben spoke economics. Not 100% of Linux users will purchase any specific add on, so that means only a fraction of a fraction of a market would purchase, making the platform not so viable from a commercial perspective.

You seem to teeter totter a lot. In December you preached the same thing about not purchasing:

We respect that. Now you need to respect our business decision. You're free to support whatever, but suggesting anything is greedy is seriously off base. Smart, but not greedy.

[mishaikin]

I am speechless. The Preacher.

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[Timendainum]

As a programmer, who has programmed both games, and mods for games, although, not specifically for x-plane, I think your basis for the argument that it would cost you as much development time for the support of additional OSs, as it did to develop the base product is incorrect.

You should not be redoing the bulk of your development, in both art assets and programming assets for each platform. If you are redoing everything completely from scratch, you are clearly doing it very, very wrong.

But, you answered my question. Your comment, while crude, was to point out that you do not believe developing product for linux, and apparently OSX, is worth the money to you. It's a fair judgment call to make. I understand why you might make that call.

Your public relations on the other hand leave a lot to be desired.

[Timendainum]

Long term, I think x-plugins.com position may change. There is a lot going on in terms of what Microsoft wants to do with their software distribution. There have been plenty of rumblings about MS closing off software updates and forcing them through their store. We have already seen them kabash XBox Projects (Dust 514) because they would not agree to allow updates to flow through without MS getting their 30% cut.

With Microsoft moving to the free OS distribution model, you will see them put the squeeze on software developers. Guys like x-plugins.com will end up paying a 30% royalty to MS for distribution rights. This will either squeeze guys like x-plugins.com out of business, or you will adapt, or hard core PC gaming will move away from Microsoft. What Microsoft is doing here is transferring the revenue stream. Rather than having the end user pay directly for it, they will force software developers to pay for it, and pass the cost on to the consumer through them. Really, it is brilliant, and a complete win for Microsoft.

Apple, believe it or not, has a bit softer attitude about this, but I wouldn't look to the holy grail to be produced by them. Google, they aren't even in this market yet.

In the very unscientific sample of my groups of friends, whom are all IT guys in one way or another, and whom tend to buy more "hardcore" types of games, and therefore are somewhat more representative of the more serious gaming crowd, a few of them have moved to linux primarily, and a few of them have gotten macs here in the past couple of years. The reason they are able to do this is because of the efforts of Valve. Valve has over the past 2 made linux and mac gaming a possibility. Therefore the Mac and Linux gaming communities have grown substantially.

Several of the commercial producers on this site are very focused on Windows now. Like I said earlier, it makes sense, if you look at the past of the market. But, markets like everything else change.

They are changing. I for one believe that what Microsoft is doing is putting nitch gaming at risk.

These small time developers are most likely going to go out of business, because they do not have the capability for strategic foresight, largely due to their small size, and based on the statements from the above posts some ignorance in what is happening in the IT market.

Times are changing, and the market will speak. Hopefully our hobby will survive.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Timendainum

[tobbe490]

Hallo,

I, have who was the the first to start this topic must object to the discussion above about Linux, addons and so on: The topic was: are there any problems with Windows 10 + X-plane?

Please keep to the subject! If you want to discuss something else, start a new topic! Thank you.

[Ben Russell]

1 minute ago, tobbe490 said:

Hallo,

I, have who was the the first to start this topic must object to the discussion above about Linux, addons and so on: The topic was: are there any problems with Windows 10 + X-plane?

Please keep to the subject! If you want to discuss something else, start a new topic! Thank you.

An excellent suggestion.

It's be lovely if all the Linux users could simply keep their expert opinions to themselves.

[mishaikin]

1 hour ago, tobbe490 said:

Hallo,

I, have who was the the first to start this topic must object to the discussion above about Linux, addons and so on: The topic was: are there any problems with Windows 10 + X-plane?

Please keep to the subject! If you want to discuss something else, start a new topic! Thank you.

As I said, I have windows 10 on one partition of my PC and would not recommend it. Once it restarted for an update while I was doing s.th. and didn't ask if it could restart or install the update. Also when x-plane starts during the initial loading the system cannot do anything else (can't say if it is normal for windows since I don't have other windows to compare).There is a long topic on windows 10 in the dotorg forum (subject is "Windows 10 : Friend or Foe?"). Some users say they will remain on windows 7 for the time being.

Windows 10 - http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/15/windows-10-automatically-installs-without-permission-complain-users - have fun ....you may have it installed soon even if you don't want it.

[Timendainum]

Quote

It's be lovely if all the Linux users could simply keep their expert opinions to themselves.

You love to alienate customers don't you?

Keeping on topic, it really seems like the safe option for now is to avoid Windows 10, as mentioned in the x-plane.org forums (listed above).

Edited March 15, 2016 by Timendainum

[mishaikin]

2 minutes ago, Timendainum said:

You love to alienate customers don't you?

Keeping on topic, it really seems like the safe option for now is to avoid Windows 10, as mentioned in the x-plane.org forums (listed above).

Just see his new signature

"

Author of Gizmo64 for X-Plane.

“If it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth.”
- Carl Sagan

 

30%+ more work for ~1% more customers. -Linux.

"

.... if in a normal company someone does this he would be fired instantly .... but small people ....

[Timendainum]

Quote

Just see his new signature

"

Author of Gizmo64 for X-Plane.

“If it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth.”
- Carl Sagan

 

30%+ more work for ~1% more customers. -Linux.

"

.... if in a normal company someone does this he would be fired instantly .... but small people ....

I am beginning to understand why this community was forced to separate from x-plane.org. I'm a bit ashamed I've spent money at the store here.

[Ben Russell]

I have come to understand why most developers simply do not engage with community forums.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Ben Russell

[mishaikin]

3 minutes ago, Ben Russell said:

I have come to understand why most developers simply do not engage with community forums.

That was on the tip of my tongue to say ....