Engine Startup issue

[Amons]

Hi all,

 

Bought this great bird, and love flying it. Great work LES!

 

However, I've had issues with engine startup from the very beginning. It sometimes starts exactely as it should, and many times, the tep rises to about 30 and stops there. The autostart option was useful to bypass this issue when there was nothing else I could try, but now even this trick wouldn't work...

 

Any ideas?

 

Amon

[kneighbour]

A number of us seem to have this same issue. It does not happen enough (for me at least) to discern a pattern or what might be causing the problem. Could you perhaps provide more information on what might lead up to the problem?

 

In my case, I am certain the Condition levers are located at the Start position. Apart from that, not much of a pattern.

[mmerelles]

never happened this to me :S but the symptoms look like a fuel cutoff problem due to external hardware or another aircraft shutdown prior to the problem arises. I have couple ideas to check, i will test tonight at the sim and report back. 

 

Can you confirm to me:

 

When this problem occurs, did you already made another flight (no matter what aircraft was even the saab itself)?

 

or

 

does this problem also occurs first xplane load and the saab being first flight?

[mmerelles]

i did some testing playing with fuel cutoff/mixture but unable to reproduce the problem. Both engines fire up as expected at all times.

 

-i did open a dataref window to monitor, the saab set mixtures properly no matter how they were

-i tried playing with the mixtures assigned to a handlebar before, during and after engine startup and it does not affect how CL operates.

-i did played pulling the CLs with the mouse and with the external hardware assignment, worked as expected.

 

Sorry guys nothing helpful here to understand this mystery.

[Polar1955]

I have had this problem since I purchased the acrft over a year ago. It seems to be a random problem, but the problem is more then not, and not even the auto start will get it going. I was a MSFS user going back to FS2000 until switching to XP last year and all my experience has led me no where for a solution to the problem.  Cameron gave me some ideas to check but they did not pan out as the possible cause. I am hopeful that a solution may be found as I love the plane, but as of a week ago I gave up on my abilities to find the cause.

P.S. I might add that when I first got the plane it was the only add-on I had so I don't think it is any plugin, etc.giving us grief.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Polar1955

[JGregory]

Guys... please see this post.  I have made some adjustments in the engine model based on this feedback.  However, because I have never been able to recreate this problem, I don't know whether the changes will definitely work.  

 

We will get an update out in the near future for you all to try out.  Thank you for your patience.

Edited July 9, 2015 by JGregory

[Amons]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for your input.

 

I tried to isolate the problem too. A few oservations:

 

-Problem persists in any of the published startup procedures (Manual/Auto, official and other tutorials - I've tried every thing I found).

-Problem persists even after I restart XP or reboot. No other airplane shutoff prior to that.

-No relevance to CL position, weather they were moved by hardware or mouse (BTW - in the autostart option, they are being set by the system.

-After a couple of hours last night, trying to start the plane at PAYA, I changed location to KSEA and managed to auto start..

-This morning, started again at PAYA, no luck, changed to LCLK and was able to start manually without any issue. Chaned back to PAYA and again, started manually without any issues.

 

Seems like an issue with the combination of plane and airport.

 

It seems like a "work arround". However I wisht the good people at LES would take a look at that...

 

Hope this helps.

[JGregory]

It seems like a "work arround". However I wisht the good people at LES would take a look at that...

I can assure you that a particular airport has nothing to do with this issue.  As I stated above, I believe I have a solution, it just needs to be tested.  PATIENCE, please!

[Polar1955]

Two flights tonight and no start problems using procedure I have spoke of in previous threads , still an issue w/ assigning the right CL but has not required a restart of XP, I just played w/  said lever until the lever was properly assigned and moved as designed. JGregory I think moving the condition levers full forwards before starting XP is the solution, seems odd, but I have had perfect starts by doing this everytime so far. Is it possible that saved flights having the CL's assigned in another acrft  in XP joystick settings is the reason why these levers must be full forward even though they have been disabled in XP after starting the SAAB.

 I have saved flights in XP using other acrft eg Carenado planes w/ the levers already assigned, as well as views then disable the CL's  in order to fly SAAB as the instructions indicate must be done, the saved flights remain, do these settings fully get disabled? Hope this makes sense....

 

By the way I removed Xassign some time ago because I felt it was not necessary as long as I saved a plane type w/ my views etc. for that acrft.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Polar1955

[kneighbour]

When this problem occurs, did you already made another flight (no matter what aircraft was even the saab itself)?

For me, no, this is the only aircraft I have loaded.

 

does this problem also occurs first xplane load and the saab being first flight?

Yes, this happens to me

[Polar1955]

Have you tried before loading XP pushing your control levers full forward, so as not to load levers in fuel cutoff position? Then removing the CL's assignment in joystick menu to "None" If need be, reload XP w/ the above completed, I would like to know if you are experiencing problems after doing this?

[mmerelles]

i tried starting xplane cutoff position, nothing assigned to CL levers, loaded SAAB, assigned CLs vía Saab menu index 13 and 14 as usual. Aircraft engines fired up normally.

[Polar1955]

I can assure you that a particular airport has nothing to do with this issue.  As I stated above, I believe I have a solution, it just needs to be tested.  PATIENCE, please!

You have solved the problem for me, I have had no problems starting engines as long as I move my CL's full forward before starting XP. Six (6) flights over past 3 days....      

 

P.S. No Cl assigning issues either

Edited July 12, 2015 by Polar1955

[JGregory]

I have had no problems starting engines as long as I move my CL's full forward before starting XP

What were your lever(s) assigned to (in X-Plane) BEFORE doing this?

[Polar1955]

The levers were assigned CL's, but after starting XP and SAAB they were assigned None as per instructions. 

[JGregory]

The levers were assigned CL's, but after starting XP and SAAB they were assigned None as per instructions. 

Please clarify.  X-Plane does not have an assignment named "CL's".

[Polar1955]

Please clarify.  X-Plane does not have an assignment named "CL's".

The condition levers, CL's, or props in XP. 

 

Did you see my post from above July 10, here it is,

"Is it possible that saved flights having the CL's, (XP Props) assigned in another acrft  in XP joystick settings is the reason why these levers must be full forward even though they have been disabled in XP after starting the SAAB.

 I have saved flights in XP using other acrft eg Carenado planes w/ the levers already assigned, as well as views then disable the CL's  in order to fly SAAB as the instructions indicate must be done, the saved flights remain, do these settings fully get disabled? Hope this makes sense.... 

 

By the way I removed Xassign some time ago because I felt it was not necessary as long as I saved a plane type w/ my views etc. for that acrft.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Polar1955

[JGregory]

The condition levers, CL's, or props in XP. 

A condition lever (such as the Saab has) is different than a "prop pitch" lever.  I was asking you to clarify because X-Plane does not have an assignment available that is named "condition lever" or "CL".  In order to avoid confusion (especially when referring to the Saab) we should try to avoid using "condition lever" to describe a "prop pitch" control lever.  They are two different things.

 

Did you see my post from above July 10

Yes, I saw your previous post.

 

"Is it possible that saved flights having the CL's, (XP Props) assigned in another acrft  in XP joystick settings is the reason why these levers must be full forward even though they have been disabled in XP after starting the SAAB.

Not likely, although this may be somewhat associated with what was reported here.  As I stated previously, I have made some adjustments to the fuel logic (for the next update), which addresses this.  Since I cannot reproduce this issue, you guys will need to report your findings after you download the next update.

 

I have saved flights in XP using other acrft eg Carenado planes w/ the levers already assigned, as well as views then disable the CL's  in order to fly SAAB as the instructions indicate must be done, the saved flights remain, do these settings fully get disabled? Hope this makes sense.... 

I'm not completely clear on what you're saying... what does "..., as well as views..." refer to?  and what does ..." the saved flights remain, ..." mean?  Also, when you asked... "do these settings fully get disabled?" what settings are you referring to?

Edited July 12, 2015 by JGregory

[Polar1955]

"Saved flights", under XP menu "File" then "Saved Situation" I guess I am accustomed to MSFS after 15 years and am still learning about XP, Saved Flights vs. Save Situations. 

 

So under this menu of XP, I saved acrft situations which save my cockpit views for each acrft  so I don't have to redo everything each time I load a different plane. Now as for the control axis, those are under another setting of XP and as you know are universal for all acrft, my thought  is that if I save a situation such as an acrft which uses the "Prop" axis assignment and then disable that axis and assign "None" to it for an acrft such as the SAAB, is it possible that the previous "Prop" axis assignment is somehow interfering with the SAAB because it has been saved in the "Save Situation" for another acrft even though it has been assigned "None". XP or the SAAB have retained the initial program setting for the axis, in this case, fuel cutoff. 

 

 

Now exit XP the fuel cutoff axis left in the full detent position and then loading XP and the SAAB with that lever still in the full detent position has been retained by the SAAB even though that axis will be changed from a "Prop" assignement to "None". The SAAB for whatever reason will read the axis as in the cutoff position no matter what is done in the "Settings " menu after XP is loaded because the setting is universal for XP and the SAAB may not be able to read the setting difference once XP is loaded.

 

To correct this I place the axis in the full up position before loading XP and thus once loaded the axis is not being read in the cutoff position by XP and hence the SAAB. Start the SAAB re-assign the axis to none and go from there, it is working for me with this procedure. Seems unlikely but is the only explanation I can come up with. 

 

Edited July 12, 2015 by Polar1955

[JGregory]

Polar,

 

It's very difficult for me to follow what you are describing.  First, your views are saved with each aircraft automatically.  You do not need to save a "situation" to save the views... they have nothing to do with each other.  Situations are aircraft specific.  So, when you switch aircraft, the "situation" is no longer applicable, and would have no bearing on the newly loaded aircraft.  Therefore, the "situation" data would not be applied to the Saab.  Even if it where, we override the engines and props and control them ourselves in the code, so the previous situation has no bearing on how the Saab behaves. 

 

Since I believe this issue will be resolved with the next update, I think it would just be best to wait until the update is available and see how things work with the new changes.

[Polar1955]

First, your views are saved with each aircraft automatically, That's good to know  

[mmerelles]

"Saved flights", under XP menu "File" then "Saved Situation" I guess I am accustomed to MSFS after 15 years and am still learning about XP, Saved Flights vs. Save Situations. 

 

So under this menu of XP, I saved acrft situations which save my cockpit views for each acrft  so I don't have to redo everything each time I load a different plane. Now as for the control axis, those are under another setting of XP and as you know are universal for all acrft, my thought  is that if I save a situation such as an acrft which uses the "Prop" axis assignment and then disable that axis and assign "None" to it for an acrft such as the SAAB, is it possible that the previous "Prop" axis assignment is somehow interfering with the SAAB because it has been saved in the "Save Situation" for another acrft even though it has been assigned "None". XP or the SAAB have retained the initial program setting for the axis, in this case, fuel cutoff. 

 

 

Now exit XP the fuel cutoff axis left in the full detent position and then loading XP and the SAAB with that lever still in the full detent position has been retained by the SAAB even though that axis will be changed from a "Prop" assignement to "None". The SAAB for whatever reason will read the axis as in the cutoff position no matter what is done in the "Settings " menu after XP is loaded because the setting is universal for XP and the SAAB may not be able to read the setting difference once XP is loaded.

 

To correct this I place the axis in the full up position before loading XP and thus once loaded the axis is not being read in the cutoff position by XP and hence the SAAB. Start the SAAB re-assign the axis to none and go from there, it is working for me with this procedure. Seems unlikely but is the only explanation I can come up with. 

 

 

 

-CUSTOM VIEWS:

xplane has a feature which is named "quick looks view" which allows you to save up to 10 custom camera views per aircraft. I.E. captains view, copilot, main pedestal, overhead panel, etc. they may be external views as well, wing, fuselage, etc. Any camera view of your liking

 

to save a view press: ctrl + numkeypad[0-9]

to use a view press: numkeypad associated

 

you can update/override views at any time

 

note: in case you are a mac user let me know because numkeypad doesn't exist and i can let you know how to change default xplane key combination to save/recall views.

 

 

-CL vs PROP

Condition levers is a whole different thing than prop, thus SAAB uses is own external plugin to simulate the SAAB 340 CLs, condition levers are not supported by xplane natively. Prop axis is a while different thing. If you assign a prop type axis to CLs you may have any unexpected behavior and inconsistent results

your desired hardware lever axis must assigned to none, and they must be assigned to the CLs via the saab proprietary menu.

 

 

Unfortunately xplane does not support any class study sim, otherwise the simulator should understand how every system of every manufacturer works in real life. Thus complex payware developers simulate their systems over a plugin. Because the plugin is an external thing, when saving/loading xplane situations complex paywares may have unexpected results because xplane will not know how to restore the plugin status and its systems precisely.

 

hope this helps

 

edit: misspelling

Edited July 13, 2015 by mmerelles

[Polar1955]

Thank you mmerelles appreciate your explanation, I am aware of the custom views and use them all the time. As for the tech XP CL vs Prop, etc. Thank you for those explanations. There are so many things about XP I really like over MSFS and thus I have not flown FS9 since my first day w/ XP. I had a lot of stuff w/ FS9 and I have just wrote it all off, I do miss my PMDG stuff  MD-11, 747, Feelthere ERJ's and EMB's and Ifly 737's planes that gave me thousands of hours of flying fun, and I mean thousands. But I have been doing a lot of GA flying since moving to XP, and enjoy it. Hoping for some improvements in  XP to bring it up to par w/ MSFS in some ways, seasons eg. but overall it has been a great change and wish more of my fellow MSFS would see the great things XP provides.

 

In your explanation regarding complex acrft and plugin problems, is it then best not to save too many or no situations?

Edited July 13, 2015 by Polar1955

[mmerelles]

my recommendation would be not to save situations at all over complex paywares, because most of the operation is carried over external plugins and xplane will not be able to restore the aircraft properly and many unexpected behaviors will arise no matter the aircraft "seems" to be fine.

 

if you do not enjoy too much the pre-flight and engine startup procedure (this is the most i do enjoy), use the saab proprietary auto-start feature to speed up things.

Edited July 13, 2015 by mmerelles

[Polar1955]

I like the the startup procedures, never been one for the short cuts, I will take your advice on saving situations, only problem so many airports do not have a parking space which I require eg. cargo, and thus saving those arrivals saves a lot of time for the departures, but I will give it a go. Thank you for your input