[Solved. 2 on the go] Lengthy list of possible bugs + some suggestions

[niebieski]

Javier,

 

I have taken the time to study the manual carefully and here's a list of some discrepancies i've found in the process.

Most of them are minor and cosmetic bugs. Some might not be bugs per se, but rather my lack of knowledge of the real-life Jetstream. If that's the case, point it out, please.

 

Mind you, those are observation made with 10.20 b7 [32-bit].

If you are not able to reproduce it using 10.11 (didn't check myself, sorry), then treat them as hints on what you may need to fix in the future patch when 10.20 is out of beta!

 

Bugs:

1. GPS on / off knob doesn't work (or at least it doesn't blank out the GPS screen). WXR on/off switch is OK.
2. DH can be set in 10ft increments only. Is it like this on the real plane?
3. Flight Director cannot be switched on independetly of the autopilot. Weird. Or maybe it's like this on the real plane?
4. Transponder mode selector knob is slightly off the labels "STBY OFF", "ON" and "ALT". Here's what i mean:
   
   
    
5. When selecting ACT button on ADF radios, "ACT" word doesn't show up left of the frequency. COM and NAV radios are OK.
6. Some of the needles on the instruments become dark as soon as you start dimming the lights. This applies to "INSTRUMENTS" and "ROOF" rotary knobs.
   
   Here's a screenshot showing left panel with "INSTRUMENTS" knob at near max brightness setting (but not at max!). Notice how some of the needles became fully dark instantly (Right ENG TRQ, both EGT, Right Fuel QTY, needle of the Turn Coordinator), while some dim through the full range correctly.
   
   
   
   Same happens to overhead panel when dimming using "ROOF" rotary knob. Right Ammeter and Voltmeter needles are already dark:
   
   
   
   This can pose a problem when you want to fly dark cockpit with only instruments and labels backlight on.
    
7. Cabin lights (selectable from the yoke) lights up pretty much the whole cockpit area. Not sure if that's the way it's supposed to work, but it makes other cockpit lights somewhat useless when cabin lights are on.
8. When flying with autopilot engaged, Flight Director pitch bar is always some degress up off the airplane silhouete. First pic when maintaining altitude, second when in a steady climb using VS mode.
   
   
   
   You can also notice this behaviour in the video below.
    
9. According to manual, IAS mode should adjust pitch to maintain speed at the time of engagement. As you can see in the video, it's not entirely true.
   
   Here's what i did when recording this video:
   
   - aircraft is maintaining 9000ft, heading mode, speed 175 KIAS
   - selected 11000ft in the altitude window and armed ALT SEL
   - VS mode selected, TCS used to establish shallow 500 fpm climb rate
   - adjusted power to maintain 170 KIAS in the climb
   - here's the funny part: IAS mode is selected so it should maintain more or less current 500 fpm climb rate, but instead it pitches up abruptly until it captures climb speed of 140 KIAS (why?!)
   - climb continues at 140 KIAS until proper altitude capture occurs at 11000 ft
   
   [ make sure to watch in 1080p if you want to see all the details! ]
   http://youtu.be/cbly31htVjY
    

Feature requests / Suggestions:

1. Addition of altimeter pressure setting in hPa (instead of inHg) would help a lot when flying outside of US! :]
2. Right hand seat armrest is non-movable. It can be somewhat inconvenient when flying from right seat.
3. It would be nice if you could make wiper PARK switch operational (i think i know why you dropped that - model dataref animation vs. plugin interaction?)

 

That's all... for now!

Javier, i hope you're ok with me pointing out so many - mostly subtle - bugs.

I'm impressed how a single man could build this plane from scratch, including 3d model, animations, acf file and programming side of things. Quite an achievement i must say!

I hope you will continue to nail all those little imperfections and show everyone else how it's supposed to be done.

Even if you don't have PMDG budget!

 

Edited December 18, 2012 by Japo32

[Japo32]

Hello.. comming!

 

1. GPS on / off knob doesn't work (or at least it doesn't blank out the GPS screen). WXR on/off switch is OK.GPS on / off knob doesn't work (or at least it doesn't blank out the GPS screen). WXR on/off switch is OK.

X-Plane 9.70: This is not happening

X-Plane 10.11: That is true.. I have just seen it.. don't know what happened because last time I tried it was perfect. Added to bugs list.

 

2. DH can be set in 10ft increments only. Is it like this on the real plane?

X-Plane 9.70: This is not happening

X-Plane 10.11: yes is happening. Have checked inside datarefs editor.. and it is the dataref that don't let me use just 10's. Looking inside plane maker, I don't see anything strange... I think is something from Laminar. Have to tell them. It is not mine.

 

3. Flight Director cannot be switched on independetly of the autopilot. Weird. Or maybe it's like this on the real plane?

That is in the aircraft. There is no button to choose only Flight directors (at least in the photos and manuals I had. But if you want to control the flight modes without autopilot servos on, there are 2 ways. Both comes from asigning a button to the joystick. One is the TCS (control_wheel_steer) and the other is putting a key to the command "Servos_toggle" both in autopilot.

 

4. Transponder mode selector knob is slightly off the labels "STBY OFF", "ON" and "ALT". Here's what i mean:

Is designed that way. Old things deforms a little and goes farther than limited!

 

5. When selecting ACT button on ADF radios, "ACT" word doesn't show up left of the frequency. COM and NAV radios are OK

X-Plane 9.70: I see the ACT labels

X-Plane10.11: Yes.. you are right.. Don't know what is happening here.. has to investigate.

 

6. Some of the needles on the instruments become dark as soon as you start dimming the lights. This applies to "INSTRUMENTS" and "ROOF" rotary knobs.

This is normal in the design I made. Needles are imposible to make dim illumination because they already has another light that affects them, and only 1 OBJ in Xplane can have 1 LIT texture. So I had to hide them. But they all not hide at the same time because the manner I made to hide them is moving behind the none illuminated needles. So  if you want to see them all, you have to apply a full instrument lighting. That I must correct (you don't says it) because it affects to the menu in the yoke.. and that cannot be!!  And also separate the GPS illumination, captions and Radar from that instrument knob. But that will be done in future.

 

7. Cabin lights (selectable from the yoke) lights up pretty much the whole cockpit area. Not sure if that's the way it's supposed to work, but it makes other cockpit lights somewhat useless when cabin lights are on.

x-plane 9.70: correct size affected

x-plane 10.11: Too much maybe.. There is a problem between light size recognizion in xp9 and 10. So I loose the xp9.. and I had to increase it. Maybe I did too much? I can put then lower. What is true is go to your room... .swich off the lights at night. Go to your oposite.. a big one.. with roof lights.. switch on. Your room will be good illuminated. That is what I wanted to simulate.. BUT as said I will try to put them a little down. We don't want to have our passengers blind for the whole flight!!! (for now.. well.. by night they sleep, so if you think they are affecting your pilotaging.. I think you can switch off the cabin lights... noone will notice !

 

8. When flying with autopilot engaged, Flight Director pitch bar is always some degress up off the airplane silhouete. First pic when maintaining altitude, second when in a steady climb using VS mode.

As you can see in the images both (left xplane9 and right xp10) are quite in the center. What is happening is that you are over the level of the instrument so because the bars are a little farther from the ball of the adi there is a perspective error. Also you can check that the xp10 version is a little not to the center. BUT so little. That is because in programming I used a custom animation.. and I compared between my bars positions and the FD one to be the difference less than 0.01 so stopped. That is the 0.01.. as said.. OLD THINGS THAT ALWAYS ARE DEFORMING!!! haha.

 

9. According to manual, IAS mode should adjust pitch to maintain speed at the time of engagement. As you can see in the video, it's not entirely true.

The video is private.. I cannot see it... BUT there is something wrong you are doing. Why use VS mode and Speed mode.. no no.. or you use VS mode or SPEED Mode .. both are vertical modes but cannot be used together.

If you are at 9000ft and you want to change to 11.000ft what you have to do is this:

 

With VS mode (with pitch wheel selector)

1. Select 11000 and press ALT SEL. It will change to ARM amber caption

2. Press VS mode. Will come On.. but leveled.

3. Go to the Pitch wheel rotatory and start to pitch up.. it will be slow because the maximun range as the real plane will be 2000fpm.. so while you rotate down (to go up) you control the pointer in the vertical speed and see the desired vertical speed you want).

4. Once it reaches it.. the ALT will be captured and plane leveled.

 

With VS mode (with pitch TCS)

1. Select 11000 and press ALT SEL. It will change to ARM amber caption

2. press in your joystick the TCS button that you assigned in xplane and pitch up your plane at the desired pitch.

3. Once you have it, maintaining that pitch, you press the VS mode

4. The plane will maintain the pitch until it reaches the altitude

 

With SPEED mode.

1. Select 11000 and press ALT SEL. It will change to ARM amber caption

2. Select IAS mode. Nothing will happen only the ON caption in IAS.

3. IF YOU HAVE AN SPEED NOT NEAR MAXIMUM ONE.. then you push the throttle (if it is not already pushed.. or TTL is acting taking off some energy to the engines to maintain EGT.

4. When the throttles are push the plane will TRY to maintain the speed. This iis not mathematics.. and that is why the pilots are there. There are soooo many things that can modify this speed.. ice, bad angle, altitude.... etc... From my testings I see it correct.

 

 

Suggestions:

Addition of altimeter pressure setting in hPa (instead of inHg) would help a lot when flying outside of US! :]

Will think how.. because include inside the same altimeter is really very hard working. Any modification in the 3D may break the textures.. so I preffer not touch it. As you said.. you are impressed how a single guy could end this.. Also do I!!

 

Right hand seat armrest is non-movable. It can be somewhat inconvenient when flying from right seat.

Will look at this one!

 

It would be nice if you could make wiper PARK switch operational (i think i know why you dropped that - model dataref animation vs. plugin interaction?)

that is.. the dataref is a single animation... I succeded in having separated. The pay is to not have the parked one...

 

 

Well.. not bad.. 3 bugs, one of them form Laminar.. I think the others are correct. And now going to work a little... 1 hour and a half replying this post!! argg!!

[niebieski]

3. Flight Director cannot be switched on independetly of the autopilot. Weird. Or maybe it's like this on the real plane?

That is in the aircraft. There is no button to choose only Flight directors (at least in the photos and manuals I had.

 

Roger!

Out of curiosity i will do my own research on this. This is propably the only aircraft i have seen so far having such distinctive FD-AP relationship.

 

 

 

4. Transponder mode selector knob is slightly off the labels "STBY OFF", "ON" and "ALT". Here's what i mean:

Is designed that way. Old things deforms a little and goes farther than limited!

 

You got me on this one

 

 

 

We don't want to have our passengers blind for the whole flight!!! (for now.. well.. by night they sleep, so if you think they are affecting your pilotaging.. I think you can switch off the cabin lights... noone will notice !

 

I like that explanation

 

 

8. When flying with autopilot engaged, Flight Director pitch bar is always some degress up off the airplane silhouete. First pic when maintaining altitude, second when in a steady climb using VS mode.

As you can see in the images both (left xplane9 and right xp10) are quite in the center. What is happening is that you are over the level of the instrument so because the bars are a little farther from the ball of the adi there is a perspective error. Also you can check that the xp10 version is a little not to the center. BUT so little. That is because in programming I used a custom animation.. and I compared between my bars positions and the FD one to be the difference less than 0.01 so stopped. That is the 0.01.. as said.. OLD THINGS THAT ALWAYS ARE DEFORMING!!! haha.

 

Ok, although i'm not sure what xplane9 image you are talking about. Both my images are from xplane10.

Now that i think of it, FD bars may not be that important if they only work in conjunction with autopilot.

 

 

9. According to manual, IAS mode should adjust pitch to maintain speed at the time of engagement. As you can see in the video, it's not entirely true.

The video is private.. I cannot see it... BUT there is something wrong you are doing. Why use VS mode and Speed mode.. no no.. or you use VS mode or SPEED Mode .. both are vertical modes but cannot be used together.

 

Sorry for the video problem. Accidentally i've set the video to private instead of non-public. You should be able to view it now.

As for the problem: i'm not trying to use both VS and IAS mode at the same time. I'm trying to transition from VS climb into IAS climb.

I think i've seen same problem with IAS mode when trying to use it directly from altitude hold/cap, but i will investigate it once again and let you know.

 

 

If you are at 9000ft and you want to change to 11.000ft what you have to do is this:

 

With VS mode (with pitch wheel selector)

...

 

With VS mode (with pitch TCS)

...

 

With SPEED mode.

...

 

Thanks for the explanation, but that's the part i think i already understand

 

 

Well.. not bad.. 3 bugs, one of them form Laminar.. I think the others are correct. And now going to work a little... 1 hour and a half replying this post!! argg!!

Not bad. Not bad at all. It took me 4-5 hours to get my first post in this thread ready (testing, screenshots, video, "translating" my thoughts to english etc.)

 

Keep up good work, Javier!

 

P.S. I don't want to scare you, but i think i'm gonna fire up X-Plane now and do some more Jetstream flying (which may result in some other "reports from the cockpit")

Edited December 18, 2012 by niebieski

[Japo32]

Ok.. but the time answering is not time working! 

[Mario Donick]

Reading all this, I think it is better to provide two version of the same aircraft, one for XP9 and one for XP10. It's like aircraft for FS2004 vs. FSX.

[Japo32]

Seen the video.. 

 

First I must say that is strange the position of the FD. ... I think the plugin is doing something with it.... (if you deactivate autopilot and put it on it stays at same position?) I think that is. Let the FD park.. and then pull them out.

 

As said.. you can have a follow only FD without autopilot. As in the real aircraft.. put the option in your joystick to SERVOS TOGGLE that why you deactivate autopilot but not the Flight directors so you can fly manually. In the real aircraft I didn't find any button to set the Flight directors.. only the side that affected to autopilot. BUT this plane has THOUSANDS of configurations. The 2 pilots that sent me the photos and manuals didn't speak about that. Sure there is a photo with an "engage flight director" to let me bad!! hahaha

 

In the video.. You cannot (well you can.. but don't expect the plane to do it correctly) while you are in a vertical mode, select other vertical mode... it makes a mess... 

If you select VS.. let the VS end... Same with SPEED mode.

BUT why you apply TCS while managing the VS wheel?.. that is not the proper way of do it. You can do it? of course.. I seen in the video.. but that is not the way..

You don't need to press TCS (is illuminated in the modes) to manage the pitch wheel.

[Japo32]

Reading all this, I think it is better to provide two version of the same aircraft, one for XP9 and one for XP10. It's like aircraft for FS2004 vs. FSX.

There are 2 versions of the aircraft already. there are things inside the jetstream modified only for xplane10

[Mario Donick]

There are 2 versions of the aircraft already. there are things inside the jetstream modified only for xplane10

 

Ah, sorry. Of course. (I've got a cold, that's why my thinking works slowly today )

[jetjerry]

These are Garett engines and are direct drive.  Thus they should go into flat pitch when engines are stopped (on the locks)...not feather.

Is there a way to accomplish this?

 

I am enjoying your product...thank you.

 

Jerry

[cessna729]

These are Garett engines and are direct drive.  Thus they should go into flat pitch when engines are stopped (on the locks)...not feather. Is there a way to accomplish this? Jerry

Hi Jerry, Do you mean like this? or are you refering to a shutdown in-the-air?

 

All I did was select LEFT and RIGHT L.P. COCKS to SHUT on the overhead Engine Management panel.

Note: Once you have shut down the engines on the ground, just press F3 and F4 on your keyboard and watch the prop blade angle changing, it's a very clever animation! especially as  this little bird can manage to do that with no hydraulic pressure registering on the gauges .

cessna729.

Edited December 19, 2012 by cessna729

[Japo32]

Confirmed by Austin. He changed the decision high. Now it changes from 10 to 10 values. 

[Intrance]

BUT this plane has THOUSANDS of configurations. The 2 pilots that sent me the photos and manuals didn't speak about that. Sure there is a photo with an "engage flight director" to let me bad!! hahaha

 

The mode selection buttons act as ways to activate the flight directors. It is normally the autopilot that has to be enabled seperately in these aircraft. Not a lot of J31/32's have autopilots. So far I've flown only one with autopilot.

 

But yeah, you can't really have all configurations. A few I know of have a dual Garmin 530 setup. The ones I fly look a lot like the one you modeled in terms of instruments.

[niebieski]

The mode selection buttons act as ways to activate the flight directors. It is normally the autopilot that has to be enabled seperately in these aircraft.

 

Thanks for your input!

I guess SBY act as a FD off button?

This makes much more sense now. I simply knew there was something wrong with the FD/AP logic!

 

Javier... i think you have a serious bug to fix

Edited December 20, 2012 by niebieski

[Japo32]

Thanks for your input!

I guess SBY act as a FD off button?

This makes much more sense now. I simply knew there was something wrong with the FD/AP logic!

 

Javier... i think you have a serious bug to fix

 

Fixed that for the 1.01 version. Now selecting the modes only choose the Flight Directors on. Have to switch on the autopilot button to switch on the servos.

[niebieski]

Perfect!

[niebieski]

First I must say that is strange the position of the FD. ... I think the plugin is doing something with it....

 

It turns out plugin was NOT doing something. Check out this video (in 1080p!):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP282KocXwU

 

Hope you like it

[Japo32]

Doing that you are (or the user making the video) breaking other animations and behabiours the FDs has in my plugin.

[Cameron]

Please remove this video, Radek, and please see the following: https://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/conditions.php (Section 15).

[niebieski]

Javier, i'm not trying to solve the problem 100%. I'm just trying to show you what's wrong and where exactly you need a fix and the basic code to do it.

Sure, i haven't spent another 5 hours to reverse engineer your code / animations trying to make, for example FD on/off behaviour correct.

 

Long story short: you didn't take into account ADI ball moving while updating your J32/FDPitch dataref. Simple solution is shown in the video (it's mine video btw.).

 

Trying to help you fix crucial bugs in your plane to be honest i didn't expect such a cold response from you...

[niebieski]

Please remove this video, Radek, and please see the following: https://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/conditions.php (Section 15).

 

Done ...

[Japo32]

Well. first those things has to be done internally as Cameron is suggesting you. And second. My skills of programming are so limited that include any code from outside that I don't totally understand is something I cannot do..

Right now the bars are picking the right FD datarefs... The problem comes when comparing to make an smooth transition from dissappear to appear.. is a simple IF comparison and a ratio of animation that has to be touched. 

If I find the solution I will do it. Don't worry. But there are other problems that need faster solution and I am with them. I am only 1 person and must decide which is more important or not. The FD right now is not the most... and the autopilot also wasn't but because it was an easy solution I did it.

 

You have been 5 hours decoding the plugin... I have been 1 year making all the plane. Step by step.

[Japo32]

I have been looking at the position of flight director datarefs and mines.. When climbing they are set to 13-15º pitch up and even if we are set correctly in the VS mode they never go to the center (I mean the dataref) in your video if I don't remember bad, the FD pitch bar once the plane was pointing to the good Vertical Speed I think it was going to cero. But in xplane, the datarefs don't go to cero until it is reached the altitude...

My bars are doing what the dataref tells them.

[niebieski]

Javier, you forget you have an ADI ball (the big animated ball) constantly moving BEHIND the FD bars. Think about this:

 

If the plane is pitching 10 degress up

 

AND

 

The Flight Director wants the plane to pitch 15 degress up

 

with your current code you are telling FD pitch bar animation to point

 

25 DEGRESS UP !!!

 

where you should tell the animation to point relatively

 

5 DEGRESS UP

 

You need to do a basic math on FD pitch bar animation. I showed you the complete, yet very simple code (4 lines!) in the video. I had a good intention...

Edited December 21, 2012 by niebieski

[Japo32]

I think I start to follow you.. But in your example.. if the FD tells me 15ºup and the plane is climbing already in autopilot 15º Up, then it should tell me the FD to climb 30º Up instead of 25.. isn't it?

So to calculate the correct pitch angle I should always do 

 

MypitchbarPosition = FDDataref - ADIPitch position, don't you think? So if the Ball is 0º pitch.. and is pointing me to 15º up the dataref, then it coincide.

But if I climb those 15º up, the FD should go to 0º pitch.

If that is correct, the code is easy. I didn't thought about the ball rotation.

 

With roll the same? or not.. mmmm because in that case the translation of the bar in roll are not angles but distance from center.

[niebieski]

You start to understand it but still don't get it all correctly.

Now that i think of it, i'm sure the problem can be solved using one line of C code.

 

Sorry Javier, but as Cameron pointed out "Sharing methods of modification (how to do so) is strictly prohibited and is grounds for termination of a user license or account.".

I'm not taking that risk, obviously.

 

As for the roll FD animation, let me just say (as a humble customer) that it is also broken in the current version.