G-ERTI

Nice to know this is being fixed...

Looks great but I wish they did EGLL instead as that is what is really needed! There are already some good freeware EIDW packages out there...

They could still do what they love... It would be desirable for customers as devs would have to make BRILLIANT products to do well. Secondly the support would be very specific and likely to be quick. They could still market on forums (like pmdg do), developers would not have to pay for retail space either, all in all making the product cheaper to sell. It would also make it more competive which is good thing... I agree with your last point in the short term, but long term that is not likely to be an issue. Also making a website is not extremely difficult. Sites like weebly make it quite good fun!

He is saying the customer experience is awful and the way to solve that is for devs to cancel out the third party and make their own way. Therefore the bad ones die and the good ones live as they are not sheltered under a retail umbrella which will deal with the day to day sales. Then he is saying the reason it is bad is because there is no way for the customer to have any control and the owners abuse their power. He/she cannot get a refund or even influence peoples views on the product. Just to make it clear by saying this I DONT mean you specifically, I am talking in very general terms. As a result this harms the brand in its entirety as the customer does not trust it. Fill me in if I missed anything.

I would be interested to hear what I have missed, as I am sure I have missed something! If these principals are so basic, why do so few flight sim companies run with them (including your own)?

Listen to Hangars experience. Clearly he knows what he is talking about. What he says is also backed up by the simple economic theory for the necessity of trust between two parties whilst making any kind of business venture or transaction. The problem is all the power is in the court of the store owners, therefore the customers are not likely trust them and the whole thing falls apart. The owner has control as the customer cannot get his money back and in the case of most products cannot even tell others of the problems he/she has with it because posts they make will be removed. I know the last point does not apply to x-pilot, but at many other sites it does. To gain the trust of customers you need to listen to them and act on what they say. I think this is what Hangar is trying to say. To run a good business you need to be customer conscious, that is a basic fact, for too long people in the x-plane world don't seem to think this is necessary as they are running a 'niche'. Time to take a leaf out of every successful business. Care about your customers and make them feel safe to try and buy things, then they will trust you more and buy more from you. This does not necessarily apply to x-aviation in such a big way, but it certainly does to some other stores, again not necessarily x-plane ones either.

One of the most hard working and high profile figures in Flight Simming needs a little bit of help. Froogle (Peter Wright) has an uncle who needs some help to afford his cancer treatment. I think it would be appreciated by Froogle if people could donate, no matter how small. As little as £1 will even go a long way as his uncle is very close to receiving the full amount he needs. Lets repay Froogle for all the great vids and time he has given the flight sim community. Here is a link to his Facebook page where you can donate: https://www.facebook.com/Frooglesim

Better be careful! Thanks man.

Don't mean to pester, but anything new?

Looking great keep up the good work!

Cameron, I am sure you know more about it than I do.

Look Carlos, I have admitted I was wrong, personally I would like to leave it that. What I was getting at, is that if I was not allowed access to a product I had paid because he removed the DRM pass code, I do not think that would be right as I have paid for them and I have not and will not sell them now. So may I also add a sincere apology to anyone I have offended by writing these posts. I see now that it is not right to deprive people of potential custom. I am sorry to all the devs and Nicolas in particular. Therefore if we could just leave it there that would be great. I hope I have done the right thing by apologising and admitting I am in the wrong and now everyone can just forget about it and move on. I hope I am allowed to continue to offer my custom to XP devs as well.

In that situation, all though it will not need to occur, I would report him to PayPal for not providing the goods. One of the benefits of using it is that they have great customer protection.

Hello everyone, I have just spoken to Dan Klaue and he very cogently and earnestly communicated his view point. By way of this, although in the EU it is still legal to sell the second hand software, on a personal and community based level, it is not worth the aggravation or the upset it causes. Therefore having been swayed by a personal argument from Dan and after thinking about what he said for a short while I have concluded I will not be selling the aircraft. I ADMIT I WAS WRONG FROM A MORAL STAND POINT.

I understand your view point Ben. I just think that I have done my fair share for the XP community.I have supported developers with hundreds of dollars, $390 to be precise. Therefore I think I have given my fair share of support for devs.

You seem to be insulating I would make copies of these products. Well you would be wrong. Also DRM does not stop selling products on. It just stops people making copies. As far as I am aware there was no mention of making copies. In fact I made it very clear I would not. So please stop being all libellous and petty, it is not healthy. Stop having a panic attack just because your laws are not effective where you want them to be. I think ointment has contributed all he needs to to this thread. So for the last time. IF SOMEONE CAN FIND A LAW WHICH APPLIES IN EUROPE (where I live) WHICH STATES THE SELLING OF SECOND HAND SOFTWARE IS ILLEGAL, I WILL NOT SELL ANYTHING. IF NOT THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING ME, ACCEPT DISAPPROVAL OF PEOPLE I WILL NEVER MEET!

Look my friend. I do not live in the US, I am not staying the US. When I am in your country I respect your laws, I however, do not feel the need to abide to them when I am not. It is clear that anyone who would buy it from me would not be prepared to buy it for $60 as otherwise they would, so I am not depriving FF. I am letting one person experience it. Anyway, I have given them my $60, therefore I have not broken any laws in my country, hence they would be foolish and time wasting to pursue me. Any court in Europe would just ignore it, because what I am doing is clearly legal under EU law. As LEEN said, to enforce an EULA in the EU wherever, you got the software from is illegal. I am afraid that is the end of it. The US justice system does not have jurisdiction in Europe.

I am glad you think so highly of your time SQRT. If so I would recommend you don't bother wasting it on me, as after all in the grand scheme of things we are talking about $60 of software, not £10000. I am sure your time is far more valuable than that, so I thank you profusely for it. Lastly may I add I am still very open about this, should someone present a European law which forbids this, so far no one has...

And that would be a yes SQRT, anything you want to ask just go ahead. I am happy to answer your questions. The only reason I do not think I am doing wrong is because it is only US based members who seem to have a problem with this. From what I have seen, unless I am mistaken all European members seem to be OK with it.

Please you ointment you are being rather rude now. I just don't want to break the law and as long as I know what I am doing is legal in my country I have no qualms about doing it. End of story. I have not had my mind made up, in fact I said I would contact FF, but now thanks to the information of other members I no longer need to trouble them. With regards to the flying, every little helps.

I completely agree with you about the bank thing etc. However, I am not a US citizen, nor am I residing in the US. Therefore the laws of the US do not apply to me when I am not in the US. I am sorry but no matter what you say US law does not apply to me, I am sorry if you think I am trying to twist evidence. But all the evidence applying to EUROPEAN laws are in my favour. It is only US law that goes against European law. As Leen said that EULA in Carenados copyright does not apply in the EU and it is actually illegal for a company to put that in its copyright in the EU. Nicolas sold it to a European market, he does not have to sell to it. My address on his website is within Europe, I have not lied. If he wants to sell in Europe, he has to play by the EU rules, as I am buying it in the EU I do not have play by US rules. As for your logic with a US product, an IPOD is a US product but under my use of it in the EU, EU laws apply to it not US laws. So I think you are the one with logic flaws. By depriving me of the product I have paid for I did not make myself clear, but I meant updates associated with the purchase of the product. I am sorry you think I am trying to play this to my advantage, but I will play by the laws of where I live, not your country.

Thank you everyone for looking into this. I really appreciate the time you have put in. My conclusion after doing a little more research myself is that the EULA no matter where it came from cannot be applied in the EU as by selling it in the country where it is legal to sell second hand software I am not breaking any laws. Therefore even Nicolas in his ivory tower of power has no jurisdiction over my selling on second hand aircraft. He cannot do anything beyond banning on his forum... I have also tried to find some examples of it online and I found one guy on eBay selling a load stuff for x-plane. The FF757 and a load of Carenado stuff included. I snatched myself a Carenado for £8! Brilliant. So I think I will follow that example and sell my 757 on eBay. My only reason is that it is not illegal and although it may not please say Nicolas. His sentiments are not my concern as I will not have broken the law. The point that Nicolas does not have to comply with EU law can be equally applied in the other direction, I do not have to comply with US laws. He cannot stop me and he does not know what my account at his store is. Secondly if he was to deactivate my account at the org store, which incidentally uses a different email to my forum email (good luck finding it Nicolas), he would certainly be breaking the law in any country as he would be depriving me of the products I have purchased.

Please, I do not think of it as a loss at all, in fact it has been very useful as I have learnt a lot about that aircraft. But now I need money for a PPL and if selling a 757 simulation is a way to achieve that whilst also allowing someone else to have the joy of flying it, I cannot see why people would mind. Especially considering the main aim of a flight sim is to make flying a possibility. Thanks for your reply, I will look into it further, as yet I have not found an EULA relating to FF products.

Thanks again for your replies, I would like to but my messenger on the org does not work, I will try to find another way.

Just looking at the FF copyright, there does not appear to be anything concerning and end user agreement only copyright. As far as I know I was never asked anything or asked to agree to anything concerning a EULA. Thank you very much for your replies, you have been very helpful. Although considering the copyright does not seem to address the issue of EULA I still cannot see any issues with selling that particular software.