ENGINE ICE PROTECTION usage question

[arb65912]

Gentlemen,

 

I was on approach in IMC and RPM of both engines dropped gradually and I ended up in crash.

 

I had ENGINE ANTIICE on ( both engines), AIRFRAME antiice on AUTO STALL VANE/PITOT ON.

 

I would like to know if maybe I supposed to have ENGINE ANTIICE/IGN on instead of ENGINE ANTIICE.

 

From manual:

 

 

ENGINE ICE PROTECTION -

• Anti-ice - Allows hot air to flow through air inlet duct, compressed air inlet, and fuel control

temperature / pressure sensor of related engine.

• Anti-ice / IGN - Engine with continuous ignitiion.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Cheers, AJ 

 

 

[Japo32]

Propeller anti-ice also? Surface anti ice? Probes?

Of course always is good stay the minimum time in ice conditions.

[arb65912]

Yes, all anit ice on probes on.  Crashed again , I was on localzer and the plane started to bank to the right, trim was neutral, yoke calibrated...

 

I must have been doing something wrong, it was third time the same crash.

 

See attached.

 

Cheers, AJ 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2012 by arb65912

[Japo32]

Anti ice systems are working. The icing affect over the plane are Xplane culprit. Not using anything special. Anti ice can make its work but they have a limit I suppose.

[arb65912]

I will will investigate further and report back. Maybe like you said that it a limitation of the X-Plane.

 

Thank you for a super quick reply.

 

Cheers, AJ 

[arb65912]

Well, I did it 2 times in a row.

 

Everything works but if I stay longer than few minutes in the clouds, the plane starts just losing speed...

 

I have all antiice on, I cycle manual deicing  wing and tail, no luck ....

 

Maybe you need to take a look at that, put the plane in the clouds and icing conditions, turn all antiice on and see.

 

Maybe it is just me but I ran out of options how to solve that problem except of not flying in the clouds..lol

 

Cheers, AJ 

[Japo32]

haha.. someone said that I must take a rest... until the problems comes!

 

Well. I cannot do anything here. Thas it the way xplane defines the icing. If it happens with the Jetstream it should happen with all other aircrafts. Of course this could not be true if the aircrafts has more speed, more heavy.. or whatever.. but that is something xplane phisics engine controls and not myseft.

 

I think that is something it has to be reported to Laminar

[Japo32]

Have asked Austin.. lets see what he has to say.

[cessna729]

Well, I did it 2 times in a row.

Everything works but if I stay longer than few minutes in the clouds, the plane starts just losing speed...

I have all antiice on, I cycle manual deicing  wing and tail, no luck ....

Hi AJ, missed your post earlier (Cooking the cristmas lunch)

If you can get this to happen again (or you haven't flown since), save the METAR.rwx file in the X-Plane folder and winzip it and attach to your next post, along with the ICAO code for the nearest airport, and altitude you were flying at. The other thing you can check is the Aircrafts total weight in X-Plane, I bet you find it's "put on alot of weight". I can almost guarantee that you were using "X-Planes REAL Wx" feature and XP10's over active weather interpretation was to blame for the aicraft icing up and crashing. NO aircraft is immune from the effects of the weather and "real aircaft do crash even though they had anti-icing fitted", all RW anti ice is designed to do is give the aircraft time to get out of the dangerous icing area. To will not protect the aircraft in all possible icing conditions indefinately!!

Unfortunately IMHO XP10.10 and above have "overactive" Wx that will bring down any aicraft correctly modeled (i.e. it's not the aircaft model, it's the XP Wx model that's at fault (IMHO that is).

Got to go and lie down, too much brandy in that Christmas pud!!

cessna729.

Edited December 26, 2012 by cessna729

[arb65912]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I have read all replies on the subject, thank you very much.

 

Let's summarize things.

 

We know that X-Plane icing/weather model is sometimes overactive.

 

We know that flying in icing conditions should be avoided at all costs.

 

On the other hand, that is why we have the simulator and and super sharp people like Javier and Cameron to try things we would never dare in real life flying.

 

Today I attempted 4 times the flight from KDFW to KOKC and crashed 4 times in pretty much the same fashion.

 

I am not young anymore but I remember times when I was at the college , if I ran on a math of physics problem, I would never give up until I have solved it.

 

Today that young spirit manifested again and I was not going to quit after 4 crashes....

 

I flew again, not the full route but just the approach and ...... I  successfully flew the approach and landed 3 times.

 

I have left the weather the way it was loaded from real life when flying on VATSIM.

 

How did I do it?....

 

I think this is so important subject that I am going to make a separate thread called " When the speed is your friend".....

 

Now you probably guested how I managed to achieve it but if you want some more detailed explanation, read my post, it should be on withing half an hour.

 

Javier and Cameron, you guys are the masters.

 

I know, JS32 is a payware but without your talents, it would not happen.

 

Thank you for my favorite aircraft in this category.

 

Clapping hands for Javier and Cameron, the plane is worth every penny.

[arb65912]

I still do not know ( it is not described in detail in manual ) what is the difference between  these two systems described below.

 

 

• Anti-ice - Allows hot air to flow through air inlet duct, compressed air inlet, and fuel control

temperature / pressure sensor of related engine.

• Anti-ice / IGN - Engine with continuous ignition.

 

Does it mean that Anti-ice / IGN option has all that the same abilities as Anti-ice but it is used when ignition is set to continuous?

 

In other words, when would I use Anti-ice and when Anti-ice / IGN ?

 

Thank you.

 

Cheers, AJ 

[Intrance]

Anti-ice is basically what you turn on when the outside air temperature is within icing range and there's visible moisture (clouds etc). Continuous Ignition is usually used when there is also (heavy) precipitation present, like flying through rain or snow. Some Jetstreams have the combined option, others have a seperate Ignition switch.

 

So basically, whenever you're flying through precipitation, you switch from Anti-ice to Anti-ice/IGN.

[tkyler]

AJ,

 

To elaborate a bit on Intrance response, a turbine engine "combustion reaction" is self-sustaining....that is fuel is fed to the "combustion process" which is already underway.  There is no spark to ignite the mixture after the engine has been started.  It just pours gas into an already existing fire in the combustion chamber.   When in situations like rain or any type of moisture as Intrance pointed out, the moisture might "put out the fire".  In this case, fuel is still being fed into the engine, but there is no spark/fire to ignite the fuel.  In this case, you DO need a spark to light the fire.  This is what continuous ignition is all about.  It is designed to provide a source of ignition in situtions where there is excessive moisture pouring into the engine tries to extinguish the combustion.  It is literally a fight between moisture trying to put out the combustion and the continuous ignition trying to keep the fuel lit.

 

It is common to turn on continuous ignition before turning on engine anti-ice on aircraft where these functions are independent of one another.  This is because if you turn on anti-ice on your engine and some ice melts and then flies into the engine...it could cause the engine to flame-out. X-Plane does not simulte this scenario by default though so it is unlikely what you've observed.  It can be simulated with custom programming.

 

Now as far as XP anti-ice goes.  You can investigate this onscreen using the data in/out feature whereby you can print the icing ratios onscreen while you fly.   X-Plane will display the amount of icing on the wings / engine / inlets and such.  You can monitor these and see if ice is accumulating or the anti-ice system is not working.  My gut tells me that x-plane is not detailed enough to consider the rate of icing. (I may be wrong) only that icing is accumulating or melting.   So I see it unlikely that the anti-ice is working yet the icing is still going up.  If I am wrong and x-plane can accumulate ice faster than the system can melt it, I would be surprised and impressed.

 

We have overhauled some de-icing datarefs as recently as 2 weeks ago and introduced two new de-icing datarefs because of a bug in the de-ice system.  It may be that Javier utilized the broken datarefs and has not implented the new ones, being they're only 2-3 weeks old.   Javier?

 

Tom K

Laminar / IXEG

Edited December 26, 2012 by tkyler

[arb65912]

Thank you, Intrance.

 

What happens if  Anti-ice/IGN is on but I do not fly through precipitation but the outside air temperature is within icing range and there's visible moisture (clouds etc)

 

Is that kind of being overprotective?

 

Cheers, AJ 

[tkyler]

Is that kind of being overprotective?

I don't mean to steal Intrance thunder AJ.  I just happen to be here in the forum.  Sorry Intrance!

 

Nothing wrong with being overprotective.  The MU2 (which I'm familiar with) uses a similar type of engine as the J32....and the "book" calls for turning on de-icing whenever you are in icing temperature range and there's visible moisture.  Certainly better safe than sorry.   Icing is always associated with moisture.....and temperature of course, those two being the mix that causes icing.    On a micro-level, if you flew in and out of clouds at below freezing temperatures, your would be at icing risk in the clouds but not out of the clouds....at least in reality. True "icing conditions" are a bit more complex of course.   X-Plane has no concept of "cloud volume" though and can't simulate icing on a "per cloud" basis.  x-plane does keep track of temperature and precipitation and has a range of this combination where icing will  accumulate, probably at a steady rate if I know Austin.

 

TomK

Laminar / IXEg

Edited December 26, 2012 by tkyler

[arb65912]

Hi Tom,

 

Thank you very much for detailed and very interesting reply.

 

The fact is that I am not even close to know about engine systems but the way you explained it, I understand.

 

I also understand better now the X-plane icing simulation process.

 

I am looking forward to Javier's reply on dataref and thank you again very much for your help, greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers, AJ 

[Japo32]

Yes.. yes I used the new ones. since the 1.0 they are used. Of course in the xplane9 version doesn't work.. and in xplane10.11 but yes in 10.20 beta 5 was the introduction of them.

It is easy.. you can install datarefs editor, look for "ice" and there you will have them working all when icing and anti-ice are set.

[cessna729]

The BAe-32 an ICE NICE baby! :lol:

cessna729.

 

[cruster]

I experienced my first full-on icing incident today. Holy smokes, what a riot. For a while the anti-ice was doing a great job (it was cool watching the ice 'chunks' disappear from the prop cones!), but eventually it just couldn't keep up. I had to rapidly descend from FL130 down to about 3500 before it all melted off. Awesome amount of fun!

[cessna729]

I experienced my first full-on icing incident today. Holy smokes, what a riot. For a while the anti-ice was doing a great job (it was cool watching the ice 'chunks' disappear from the prop cones!), but eventually it just couldn't keep up. I had to rapidly descend from FL130 down to about 3500 before it all melted off. Awesome amount of fun!

Just like in "Real life"

cessna729