[SOLVED] Duplicate waypoints when loading ICAO route

[KAPTEJNLN]

HI this is another thing. I have tryeid to create some routes to se how they are built and so. as i have been siting whit some flightplaans from Vroute and inserted to the CRJ. Then i found a big problem. and seems to be when there is both a VOR and NDB at the first waypoint. as the route looks like this:

Vroute flightplan from LMMLto EKCH: GZO UP126 PNZ UM726 ROSOK T296 CDA

if i just enter it manualy or from the plane it saves it but next time i want to load by entering LMMLEKCH it ask about GZO and i can only select VOR as NDB is shown but when pressed nothing happens. but thats not the big problem. it is that when i selected VOR for GZO it then only show GZO the rest of the route isen´t loaded.

also i can´t set the airway UP126 after GZO have to set it this way to use the airway: DIR GZO DIR SUSOM UP126 PNZ UM726 ROSOK T296 CDA

Note have the curent navdata.

[dan]

if i just enter it manualy or from the plane it saves it but next time i want to load by entering LMMLEKCH it ask about GZO and i can only select VOR as NDB is shown but when pressed nothing happens. but thats not the big problem. it is that when i selected VOR for GZO it then only show GZO the rest of the route isen´t loaded.

I have had this happen to me also. I manually create the .icao files myself and load them into the FMC but if like you say, if it asks to verify a waypoint the rest of the route does not load it seems...

Btw, when two waypoints share the same name, how are we supposed to know which one to choose? Shouldn't there be coordinates that tells us where it is located like some other FMC do, or is this a limitation with the CRJ200?

[philipp]

if i just enter it manualy or from the plane it saves it but next time i want to load by entering LMMLEKCH it ask about GZO and i can only select VOR as NDB is shown but when pressed nothing happens.

http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php?topic=2111.0

but thats not the big problem. it is that when i selected VOR for GZO it then only show GZO the rest of the route isen´t loaded.

This unfortunately can't be fixed. If the ICAO route requires user interaction, it won't load the rest. How should the FMS "guess" which waypoint it shall use?

Of course, one could just select the "nearest" one, but remember the American Airlines Flight 965. Controlled flight into terrain caused by just that - simply selecting the waypoint that was nearest.

Philipp

[philipp]

Btw, when two waypoints share the same name, how are we supposed to know which one to choose? Shouldn't there be coordinates that tells us where it is located like some other FMC do, or is this a limitation with the CRJ200?

No, there are no coordinates displayed, but the frequencies should be unique. That they are displayed incorrectly, is a known bug, see http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php?topic=2111.0

Philipp

[KAPTEJNLN]

i tryeid to delt the NDB from the dokument: wpNavRTE then it showed the route corect as it is displayed on vroute as there now is only VOR but if this was included in the ICAO route file there would be no problem as it seems to be when we shuld manualy select it stops therest of the route.

Then i tryeid to delt the VOR for testing so it was the NDB there was there now i got problems at PNZ as there is 2 waypoints at different locations then i could press 1lsk and then i pressed 2lsk

and the route stoped at PNZ the rest was gone.

This is also the only way of set GZO UP126 PNZ UM726 ROSOK T296 CDA

as told before after GZO was locked and could insert UP126 between GZO UP126 PNZ only by using the next waypoint

But hope there is a solution so it could be suported by vroute if posible

Best regards LN

[KAPTEJNLN]

about this:

This unfortunately can't be fixed. If the ICAO route requires user interaction, it won't load the rest. How should the FMS "guess" which waypoint it shall use?

Of course, one could just select the "nearest" one, but remember the American Airlines Flight 965. Controlled flight into terrain caused by just that - simply selecting the waypoint that was nearest.

I don´t understand what you mean, if i first create the route by entering in the plane and save it. Then next time it should load the flightplan whit out problems, but starts whit asking about GZO and when done it knows the rest of the route as already filed.

[KAPTEJNLN]

The main problem is that when you just load the flightplan it search in the wpNavAID dokument for VOR or NDB GZO that is ok if i was manualy entering the flightplan.

What i think is missing when loading a flightplan is that it search the wpNavAID and wpNavFIX but not wpNavRTE so it dosent look for the airway between GZO and PNZ as UP126 include both waypoints in the dokument: wpNavRTE and therefore this problem would stop when it first have 1 vor. as told yesterday when i delt THE NDB so it only could select VOR it just entered the hole route.

If i only have the NDB it would select GZO NDB but then ask for PNZ as no vor set then it keeps loking until it finds the first Vor then it autmatic read the other dokument and find the rest.  becaus there is no problem whit the rest of the route as it then use the: wpNavRTE For the rest of the route.

so that seems to be the problem. also seems a bit funny as when inserting SID it reads so far i can see the data from wpNavRTE.  

[philipp]

I fully understand your problem, and you can be assured that the FMS reads the data from NavAID database both VORs and NDBs.

However, as I already said, the FMS cannot "guess" wether it should take an NDB or VOR (or any of the VORs if there are more with the same name).

Well, it could just select the "nearest", and it would probably work in 99% of the cases, but this is NOT real! As I said, google for the American Airlines Flight 965 accident!

Philipp

[KAPTEJNLN]

Yes but it DOES NOT have to just pick 1 as all data is in the wpNavRTE if it just read the lines GZO UP126 PNZ now it already know from that database that both GZO and PNZ is part of airway UP126 + there location. As when ever it is NDB or VOR is selected By SID and STAR.

Or a simple way for it to read like this (just entered the data it shows on fms as it is not the right(a known bug)): DIR GZO(115:00) UP126 PNZ UM726 ROSOK T296 CDA  then if it reads it it would know what waypoint we are talking about.

Els loading is use less for many. as this isent the first flightplan that dosent work. could use the first waypoint after the VOR but dont think Vrout then want to handel it, as they have to check all routes. As i have been in contact whit them to get it supported.   

[KAPTEJNLN]

It sound like you don´t care about the problem, and solve it.

As said All data is provided from navigraph in more than 1 libary 1 for inroute and 1 there knows VOR, NDB and ILS 1 for fix points and 1 for SID and STAR. The only missing thing is the data in the ICAO file, thats tells  if it is an NDB or VOR it should use. Or mabee if it just read the inroute when loading an flightplan it would know it is the VOR and the location. As i have cross check the files.

so no need to pick the nearest. as this isent the case: FMS cannot "guess" wether it should take an NDB or VOR (or any of the VORs if there are more with the same name)

As the funny thing is i can just pick the waypoint after the VOR and then it compleats the route WHY simply becaus it now go have a look in the inroute libary where it reeds the airways and which Navaid is included in the airways.

Thats why if i just go to the next VOR and exclude the the first part it then start asking about that insted as it have 2 VOR as far as i remember as told 2 days ago where i delt the vor for GZO.

   

So the problem would continue every time there are more than 1 navaid for the first way point. very iritating

Best regards LN 

[Japo32]

I know you are frustrated about your problem, but I TRULLY tell you we CARE about our costummers and we want fix all bugs if possible. Philipp is making a huge effort to solve every user problem. Big or small. So please be patience. Today he is out (he needs recover energy also) and he will try to give you a solution.

Thanks

[philipp]

From the Rockwell Collins FMS 4200 Pilot manual, 2nd revision december 15, 1999, page 4-18:

"Occasionally a waypoint identifier (such as BLH) may be used more than once in the navigation database. In such instances, the SELECT WPT page shows when the TO line select key is pushed in the previous step.

...

You also cannot use two airways that cross without a defined crossing intersection."

That means: Crossing Intersection has always to be entered by the pilot, AND if this intersection's name is ambiguos, the pilot MUST select it.

If you have evidence indicating otherwise, show me. I totally understand that you BELIEVE it must be possible otherwise (because theoretically it is possible from the database), but I implement based on MANUALS, not on beliefs.

Philipp

[KAPTEJNLN]

I know all about how IT working in real world. I am just sayeing that you are using a funktion about saving and loading the flightplan, that can´t be used to anything when it cant load the route i actuly saved where i already selected what nav aid, before it was saved. 

[Japo32]

all this problem is comming because after for loading the route the pilot has to choose the points again that are duplicated in name?

I don't see any problem there!!!! As said 99% time if we choose the most close or even on same airway would be ok, but still it is there the 1% that can make flight have an accident.... I believe the way it is right now is ok, even I believe just choosing again the point between the selection is not a big task....

If that is not the problem... and it is something like the fms don't let you choose, then I would understand the request, other way I think is ok the way it is right now. Maybe it is not the most confortable way.... but for example also hasn't got autothrust. For confortable flights then better people should fly an airbus. For flying, CRJ or ATR.

[KAPTEJNLN]

about: even I believe just choosing again the point between the selection is not a big task

Well no, but what should i then use a load funktion for ? as it aske at the first waypoint after a selection. and thats real yes, but that cause the route to stop at that point (known bug so could only select VOR as lsk 1 dont work) so you have to enter all data again. insted of then just load the rest of the route as if it just know this waypoint it would fly the rest of the route, whit out asking as it reads from the other libary as far as i can see. becaus funny enough when it is just on route it dont care about asking about the for the rest of the mulitply waypoints. they should then also be confimed but dosent.   

about: on same airway would be ok, but still it is there the 1% that can make flight have an accident. well thats not true for this part as there is big restrction in airways and waypoint data so you would find any points any waypoint / navaid whit same names in same link.