NavData 1304 STAR problem

ephendi · April 23, 2013

Hello,

after installing navdata 1304 (navigraph) to crj200 some airport star's not apeared in FMC star menu, only runways. But in STAR directory in navdata for airport star data are available.

Example: Airport LZKZ - there are official star DEDIS1B via KOLUM or DEDIS1A. In STAR/LZKZ.txt are available, not in FMC.

Peter

LZKZ.txt

Edited April 23, 2013 by ephendi

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

Hi Peter, am at work not my sim so can't check at the moment But from memory I'm not too sure that the CRJ actually uses the SID and STAR directories, may only use the Proc folder? Any who. the text file you attached looks a bit suss for this bit:

P|DEDI1B|ALL|DEDIS|0|5S|DEDIS|48630556|20725556| |IF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0S|D258S|48634706|20765961| |TF|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0S| |91000000|181000000| |CI|0|7800|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0S|D221P|48489436|20961406|KSC|AF|1|25800|1630|22100|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0S|KOLUM|48437778|21074806|KSC|AF|1|22100|1630|20160|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

Not too sure of the 3rd line, I think it should be part of a 16.3 DME arc, but will check later.

In the mean time you could check what the difference is between the old LZKZ.txt and the new (1304 version shows), if it appears different maybe try reporting it to the Navigraph Support Forum here http://www.navigraph.com/forum/

cessna729

Edited April 23, 2013 by cessna729

ephendi · April 23, 2013

So, i tried to write to navigraph support forum.

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

Hi peter, I expect you've got this allready, but just incase you havn't

http://aim.lps.sk/eAIP/eAIP_SR/AIRAC148_EFF_13DEC2012/html/LZ-AD-2.LZKZ-en-SK.html#LZKZ-AD-2.22.8

Scroll to the bottom for links to LZKZ AD 2.24 CHARTS RELATED TO AN AERODROME

You may need it to quote to Navigraph as a current source: AIRAC148_EFF_13DEC2012, as the next one becomes effective on 2nd May 2013 (that will be AIRAC149_EFF_02MAY2013)

cessna729.

Edited April 23, 2013 by cessna729

ephendi · April 23, 2013

Thanks.

Edited April 23, 2013 by ephendi

philipp · April 23, 2013

the CRJ does not use the SID/*.txt and STAR/*.txt , only the xml files in PROC/.

The txt files are included in the Navigraph package for other addons using those files. For the CRJ they are completely irrelevant.

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

Thanks Philipp, glad I remembered that correctly:

Cessna729 Posted Today, 08:37 AM

Hi Peter, am at work not my sim so can't check at the moment But from memory I'm not too sure that the CRJ actually uses the SID and STAR directories, may only use the Proc folder?

cessna729.

ephendi · April 23, 2013

So where is problem? Why wont works?

philipp · April 23, 2013

if it worked in 1303 and doesn't in 1304 you have to ask Navigraph. Because the CRJ hasn't changed - only Navigraph data has.

ephendi · April 23, 2013

Trying roll back to 1303 and same problem in LZKZ.

ephendi · April 23, 2013

I find problem. It's in navigraph xml file.

In original navigraph is:

<Star_Waypoint ID="1">

<Name>DEDIS</Name>

<Type>Normal</Type>

<Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>

</Star_Waypoint>

I change to:

<Star_Waypoint ID="1">

<Name>DEDIS</Name>

<Type>Normal</Type>

<Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>

</Star_Waypoint>

and works.

… and

when airplane stays at apron and only apu working CTD:

in console:

23.4.2013 13:48:16,302 X-Plane-32bit[4877]: objc[4877]: Object 0x842e8b70 of class __NSCFString autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking - break on objc_autoreleaseNoPool() to debug

23.4.2013 13:48:16,303 X-Plane-32bit[4877]: objc[4877]: Object 0x8424a3c0 of class __NSCFData autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking - break on objc_autoreleaseNoPool() to debug

23.4.2013 13:48:16,303 X-Plane-32bit[4877]: objc[4877]: Object 0x510f96e0 of class __NSCFData autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking - break on objc_autoreleaseNoPool() to debug

in log.txt

0:13:11.285 I/FLT: Init p0 type:loc_ram apt:LZIB rwy:13

0:13:11.285 I/SCN: Preload time: 112301

Gizmo: logging.debug: (IPC kickoff)

shrink-wrap: License file: (/Volumes/Macintosh HD/Applications/Games/X-plane 10.20/Aircraft/X-Aviation/CRJ-200/license_key.txt)

shrink-wrap: License Verified. Sending Systems.

Gizmo: Plugin Message: com.x-aviation.shrink-wrap is sending us a text chunk of Lua script.

Gizmo: LoadScript from Buffer (com.x-aviation.shrink-wrap/text/xpl-ipc)

Gizmo: Event Map cleared.

Gizmo: logging.debug: (Gizmo Shell 11.4.25)

--=={This application has crashed!}==-

But this is no releation to FMC

THis happend often. Only staying on apron crash.

crash_report_04_23_2013_11_48_15.rpt.zip

Log.txt

Edited April 23, 2013 by ephendi

philipp · April 23, 2013

-About the STAR: The only change I see is you changed the name? I think it would be more helpful for navigraph if you just show them the difference between the latest known working file and 1304 at the specific airport. I think that will help them a lot more.

-console message: thats from X-Plane, not the CRJ. I have seen some of those since X-Plane 10.20 changed the Mac OSX API. According to Ben, they are benign and don't cause any trouble.

-crash report: Please use the 64bit version if you can reproduce the crash there.

ephendi · April 23, 2013

sorry i was x-aviation buyer. so we have not 64 crj yet

-- STAR -: yes, i sent it to navigraph. All works fine with correct star name

Edited April 23, 2013 by ephendi

philipp · April 23, 2013

oops, sorry. Sometimes I just don't realize which forum I'm writing in. Well, I have no news on this, the ball is in Ben Russel's and Cameron's court for this...

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

@ephendi

Had a quick look at the only copy of navigraph data that I have with me (at work not near sim machine at the moment). In Navigraph FMS data cycle 1212 for the CRJ, they appear to have used a shortend form of naming in LZKZ.xml "DEDI1B" in place of the actual name "DEDIS 1B". Note Navigraph appear to have used lots of shortened names on other procedures in this data. As Philipp says the best person to take this up with is Richard or Ian at Navigraph as they can check with their data provider as to what may have changed to have caused your problem. If you would like I could try loading some of my archived navdata into my CRJ when I get home tonight? What version of the CRJ are you using? 1.4.5?

cessna729.

Edited April 23, 2013 by cessna729

ephendi · April 23, 2013

I have corrected for LZIZ.xml stars, it works ...

I have latest x-aviation 32 bit crj ....

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

ephendi said:

I have corrected for LZIZ.xml stars, it works ...

Just remember if you manualy correct the navdata, to backup your changes as they will get overwritten when you next update

So if there is an error, it's always a good idea to report it (as you have done)

to Navigraph so they can correct the main database before the next cycle/update so you don't have to make your changes again.

All the best.

cessna729.

Emalice · April 23, 2013

Hi.

Could this problem be similar to the one described in this other thread : http://forums.x-pilot.com/index.php/topic/3274-setting-star-in-fmc-causes-weird-display-issues-in-xplane/

Where do we stand on that potential fix, Philip ?

Cannot wait to get my CRJ back, it is such an amazing product....

Thanks,

Tristan.

philipp · April 23, 2013

I'm the wrong person to ask here. Release of the 1.5.3 update is not my decision.

Emalice · April 23, 2013

I know you are not responsible for the CRJ release. But in the thread I mention, you suggested a possible patch fixing the problem associated with identically named waypoints in the CRJ. I was wondering if that was still happening. Whether it is happening or not, I'll keep on waiting patiently for the CRJ release as I have been for the past months.

Thanks,

Tristan.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Emalice

cessna729 · April 23, 2013

I have corrected for LZIZ.xml stars, it works ...

Hi, I've just got home and checked my sim with CRJ-200 (32-bit) and the current AIRAC 1304 Rev1 Navigraph FMS Data.

Sovled it!!!!

In the Real World at LZKZ there are SIDS and STARS with exactly the same Names!!

Navigraph is using a shortened form of these names in their 1304 FMS Data for the CRJ-200.(cos of ARINC limit of 6 characters).

This is as provided by Navigraph (note duplicate NAMES) Same thing apparently happens with NavDataPro .

Unfortunately the CRJ does not seem to like this, and as the SID definitions appear before the STAR definitions, any STAR with a name that has already been allocated to a SID, does not appear in the LZKZ ARRIVALs pages on the CRJ's FMS.

AS demonstrated here:

Warning: Don't attempt this unofficial and unsupported workaround if your at all unsure about editing .xml files, and if you do try, don't forget to backup the files before you start. And remember your edits will be overwritten when you next update the navdata.

If I rename all the STARS (that have a duplicate SID name) except DEDI1B by adding 1 letter after the 4th characterin of each of the STAR's names.

eg. DEDI1A => DEDIS1A, EBEN1A => EBENI1A, KEKE6A => KEKED6A and NOKR1A => NIKRI1A

That makes all the STAR's except DEDI1B unique, and guess what, all the stars except DEDI1B will then appear in the FMS.

If I then make the remaining STAR DEDI1B unique, by renamining it to DEDIS1B, *ALL* the STAR's appear in the FMS.

So what I don't know, is whether the RW data is wrong (SIDS and STARS at the same airport with the same names)? or wether it's a minor bug in the CRJ-200 that dosn't like identical names at the same airport. I don't think we can blame Navigraph IMHO.

I don't know if this "feature/bug" is limited to just LZKZ , how many airports have identical names for the SIDs and STARs?

Now know RW data and Navigraph data appears correct, and approx 118 Airports affected.

I have corrected for LZIZ.xml stars, it works ...

But I can't find any LZIZ.xml and LZZI.xml only has APProachs listed, No SIDs or STARs.

cessna729.

Update:

Edited April 24, 2013 by cessna729

Emalice · April 24, 2013

Confirmed then, this is another manifestation of a previously known problem, mentionned in this thread :

Could this problem be similar to the one described in this other thread : http://forums.x-pilo...sues-in-xplane/

Once again, is anything going to be done to address this issue ? I'm only asking since, given the choice between waiting a few months or editing my waypoint file, I'd choose the former.

Thanks,

Tristan.

cessna729 · April 24, 2013

Cor, I can hear an echo

philipp · April 24, 2013

This is a limitation of the XML navdata format.

Real world SID/STAR are constructed out of three parts: runway feeders, common segments, and airway feeders. The XML format only knows common segments and airway feeders. There's no possibility to encode runway feeders in the XML format. Hence, SIDs or STARs using runway feeders are encoded "wrong".

That's one of the many, many reasons why I switched to the Digital Aviation FMS format in the 777, because it is much closer to reality.

When the CRJ was conceived four years ago, a data format with this sophistication just didn't exist. So the XML format was a reasonable choice back then, because it was simply the best there was.

I'm afraid there's no possibility to teach the old XML format correct runway feeder encoding. The only workaround seems to be renaming the common segment for different runways to fake runway feeders. Navigraph does this at some of the airports I know, notably all STARs at EDDF. I have no idea why they don't simply do that for all airports.

Philipp

Edited April 24, 2013 by philipp

NAVData · April 24, 2013

Hi,

just for clarification:

1. this is NOT a Navigraph XML format limitation - Navigraph has nothing todo with this schema. The XML structure was developed by the LevelD.

2. Navigraph offers these different "feeders" too

The main question was: why the CRJ mix SIDs and STARs with the same procedure idents. The procedure idents have a maximum of 6 characters (standard ARINC), not more. The idents in the LevelD XML file and in the Digital Aviation FMS format file is exactly the same. This has nothing todo with any runways ... the question is, why suppress the CRJ the procedures, when the idents in DIFFERENT!! sections (in the SID and in the STAR) are equal?!

By the way, this is NOT a Navigraph issue - exactly the same problem exists in the AIRACs of our competitor!

The DA format:

SID,DEDI1A,01,2
FA,RW01,48.649447,21.236406,0,KSC,0.0,0.0,9.0,2,1600,0,1,0,0,0,0
CI,1, ,0.0,230.0,0,0,0,1,250,0,0,0
CF,DEDIS,48.630556,20.725556,0,KSC,258.0,21.0,258.0,15.0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0

STAR,DEDI1A,ALL,2
IF,DEDIS,48.630556,20.725556, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0
TF,KSC,48.683083,21.248167,0, ,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0

The LevelD XML format:

    <Sid Name="DEDI1A" Runways="01">
      <Sid_Waypoint ID="1">
        <Name>(1600)</Name>
        <Type>ConstHdgtoAlt</Type>
        <Latitude>0.000000</Latitude>
        <Longitude>0.000000</Longitude>
        <Speed>0</Speed>
        <Altitude>1600</Altitude>
        <AltitudeCons>0</AltitudeCons>
        <AltitudeRestriction>above</AltitudeRestriction>
        <Hdg_Crs>0</Hdg_Crs>
        <Hdg_Crs_value>009</Hdg_Crs_value>
        <Flytype>Fly-by</Flytype>
        <BankLimit>25</BankLimit>
        <Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>
      </Sid_Waypoint>
      <Sid_Waypoint ID="2">
        <Name>(INTC)</Name>
        <Type>Intc</Type>
        <Latitude>48.630556</Latitude>
        <Longitude>20.725556</Longitude>
        <Speed>250</Speed>
        <Altitude>0</Altitude>
        <AltitudeCons>0</AltitudeCons>
        <AltitudeRestriction>at</AltitudeRestriction>
        <Hdg_Crs>0</Hdg_Crs>
        <Hdg_Crs_value>230</Hdg_Crs_value>
        <Flytype>Fly-by</Flytype>
        <BankLimit>25</BankLimit>
        <RadialtoIntercept>078</RadialtoIntercept>
        <Sp_Turn>Left</Sp_Turn>
      </Sid_Waypoint>
      <Sid_Waypoint ID="3">
        <Name>DEDIS</Name>
        <Type>Normal</Type>
        <Latitude>48.630556</Latitude>
        <Longitude>20.725556</Longitude>
        <Speed>0</Speed>
        <Altitude>0</Altitude>
        <AltitudeCons>0</AltitudeCons>
        <AltitudeRestriction>at</AltitudeRestriction>
        <Flytype>Fly-by</Flytype>
        <BankLimit>25</BankLimit>
        <Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>
      </Sid_Waypoint>
    </Sid>

    <Star Name="DEDI1A" Runways="All">
      <Star_Waypoint ID="1">
        <Name>DEDIS</Name>
        <Type>Normal</Type>
        <Latitude>48.630556</Latitude>
        <Longitude>20.725556</Longitude>
        <Speed>0</Speed>
        <Altitude>0</Altitude>
        <AltitudeCons>0</AltitudeCons>
        <AltitudeRestriction>at</AltitudeRestriction>
        <Flytype>Fly-by</Flytype>
        <BankLimit>25</BankLimit>
        <Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>
      </Star_Waypoint>
      <Star_Waypoint ID="2">
        <Name>KSC</Name>
        <Type>Normal</Type>
        <Latitude>48.683083</Latitude>
        <Longitude>21.248167</Longitude>
        <Speed>0</Speed>
        <Altitude>0</Altitude>
        <AltitudeCons>0</AltitudeCons>
        <AltitudeRestriction>at</AltitudeRestriction>
        <Flytype>Fly-by</Flytype>
        <BankLimit>25</BankLimit>
        <Sp_Turn>Auto</Sp_Turn>
      </Star_Waypoint>
    </Star>

Cheers,

Richard

Edited April 24, 2013 by NAVData

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