CRJ-200 B/C Operation.

[thomascats]

Hello,

I have just ended to read the plane manual and I have a question.

Today I made a short flight From Portoroz, Slovenia to Austrian Innsbruck.

I decided to make a LOC/DME Approche for 26.

I wanted to try the B/C so I set the course to 075 degrees(Opposite of the regular course, 225), Arrived the 19DME Point and Pressed the B/C That also engaged the Appr.

The plane started to turn backwards, Like if I did not engage the B/C.

 

Someone Know What am I doing wrong?

Thanks For Helping!

 

Here is the approach chart: http://charts.vacc-austria.org/LOWI/LOWI_Approach_LOC%20DME%20East_25082013.pdf

 

 

[philipp]

The backcourse mode of the CRJ autopilot maps to the backcourse of X-Plane. No additional magic attached to it.

[thomascats]

The backcourse mode of the CRJ autopilot maps to the backcourse of X-Plane. No additional magic attached to it.

I still do not understand the problem of the approach.

Can you explain more?

 

Thanks, Thomas.

[cessna729]

I still do not understand the problem of the approach.

Can you explain more?

I think what Phillip means is if you were flying with the autopilot correctly setup in BC mode, the plane is using the default X-Plane backcourse mode. i.e. it's not using any of the CRJ's custom plugin, the  "magic" part in his quote.

 

Also your description of what you did has me scratching my head a bit???

I decided to make a LOC/DME Approche for 26.

I wanted to try the B/C so I set the course to 075 degrees(Opposite of the regular course, 225), Arrived the 19DME Point and Pressed the B/C That also engaged the Appr.

The plane started to turn backwards, Like if I did not engage the B/C.

 

You start by saying you wanted to do the LOC/DME Approach for 26 (Ok), then you say you want to do a B/C (??).

Are you trying to fly outbound on the LOC 111.10 OEV (as described in the Missed Approach procedure shown on the chart you posted?), because if you are, tracking outbound at 19nm you will go out of range (as most X-Plane default LOC/GS have a max range of about 19nm).

You sure your not getting confused with the SPECIAL LOC DME East which does have a published B/C as part of its missed approach procedure.

But that is using the LOC/DME 109.70 OEJ

A screen shot of the X-Plane Localmap with your path recorded would be helpful .

 

What happens if you try and re-create and fly the same approach in one of the default X-Plane aircraft (that has a autopilot with backcourse mode)?

cessna729.

Edited September 22, 2013 by cessna729

[maletin]

have you read the fine manual?

http://wiki.vacc-austria.org/index.php?title=LOWI_for_pilots#2._LOC_DME_West_Approach

Make sure you have the localizer OEJ 109.70 tuned and receive a signal before leaving KTI (If not, report to ATC and expect vectors to RTT NDB for a LOC DME East approach).

[...]

No, there is no glideslope - descend with v/s or manually.

Edited September 23, 2013 by maletin

[thomascats]

I think what Phillip means is if you were flying with the autopilot correctly setup in BC mode, the plane is using the default X-Plane backcourse mode. i.e. it's not using any of the CRJ's custom plugin, the  "magic" part in his quote.

 

Also your description of what you did has me scratching my head a bit???

 

You start by saying you wanted to do the LOC/DME Approach for 26 (Ok), then you say you want to do a B/C (??).

Are you trying to fly outbound on the LOC 111.10 OEV (as described in the Missed Approach procedure shown on the chart you posted?), because if you are, tracking outbound at 19nm you will go out of range (as most X-Plane default LOC/GS have a max range of about 19nm).

You sure your not getting confused with the SPECIAL LOC DME East which does have a published B/C as part of its missed approach procedure.

loc-dme-e-spec2.jpg

But that is using the LOC/DME 109.70 OEJ

A screen shot of the X-Plane Localmap with your path recorded would be helpful .

 

What happens if you try and re-create and fly the same approach in one of the default X-Plane aircraft (that has a autopilot with backcourse mode)?

cessna729.

Maybe I didn't understand the B/C mode.

For example, If I Fly inbound to a VOR station with 180 course on map. On classic IFR I can put 000 and fly B/C.

If I want to make an ILS with the CRJ, runway 07 with course 070, the I put 250 course on the HSI and use the B/C and approach options, Will the plane fly correctly?

 

^^^

That's what I understood from B/C flying.

Is it correct? Thanks.

[cessna729]

Flying VOR's you would normally just turn the OBS and get the TO/FROM indicator to change.

As regards the "Back Course", try a bit of light reading:

 

http://code7700.com/back_course_localizer.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach

 

And this:

 

Back course approach

A back course approach is a type of approach in which a pilot flies the localizer's course guidance on the opposite (back) side from the original direction it was primarily designed to be flown. A front course approach is usually depicted by the right half of the localizer symbol being shaded on the approach plate. A back course approach is depicted by the left half of symbol being shaded, as well as by clear indication (typically, in capitalized words) that the approach uses localizer for the non-standard use (namely for the back course approach). When flying a back course, the course deviation indicator (CDI) needle deflects to the opposite side with certain types of equipment. This reverse sensing means that the CDI in the aircraft indicates the opposite of what the pilot is expecting on a standard localizer approach (or during course tracking using VORs); that is, the CDI indicates to fly left when the aircraft in fact needs to fly right to intercept the approach course, and vice versa. Using CDI, if the needle moves away from center, the aircraft should be flown from the needle toward the center in order to re-intercept the correct inbound track. (Turning toward the needle, such as done on a front course, causes the aircraft to deviate further from the correct inbound track.) Reverse sensing does not occur on a horizontal situation indicator (HSI), which gives correct course guidance during both front-course and back-course approaches.

The unshielded localizer transmits in both directions to give course guidance. Because the glide slope is not transmitted on the back side of the localizer, a back course approach is classified as a non-precision approach as it has no vertical guidance. The glideslope indications during a back course approach must always be ignored.

This type of approach typically is found at smaller airports that do not have ILS approaches on both ends of the runway, where often the older localizer antennas are less directional^. These transmit a signal from the back that is sufficient enough to be used in a back course approach. Newer localizer antennas are highly directional, and often cannot be used for a back course approach.

cessna729.

Edited September 23, 2013 by cessna729

[thomascats]

Flying VOR's you would normally just turn the OBS and get the TO/FROM indicator to change.

As regards the "Back Course", try a bit of light reading:

 

http://code7700.com/back_course_localizer.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach

 

And this:

 

cessna729.

So if the LOWI area was clear of mountains and this.., I could do A 08 runway approach using the 26 LOC?

This is the only purpose of the B/C?

 

Thanks.

Edited September 23, 2013 by thomascats

[cessna729]

So if the LOWI area was clear of mountains and this.., I could do A 08 runway approach using the 26 LOC?

This is the only purpose of the B/C?

Sorry, maybe I'm not explaining it well? the LOWI area being mountainous has nothing to directly to do with "Back Courses". It's just historically all LOC (Localizer) transmit anttenas had a "back beam" by accident, which at smaller airports was a cheap way of using it as an approach aid (a "back course") to the opposite runway to which the LOC or "frount couse" was assigned. these days most modern LOC antennas are directional and have very little back beam, so an't used as B/C any more. A few of the older type are still used, the missed approach at LOWI on the  SPECIAL LOC DME East APPR being one.

the B/C button on the CRJ just tells the A/P to couple using "reverse sensing" when your flying a back course as described in the links and post above.

cessna729.

[thomascats]

Sorry, maybe I'm not explaining it well? the LOWI area being mountainous has nothing to directly to do with "Back Courses". It's just historically all LOC (Localizer) transmit anttenas had a "back beam" by accident, which at smaller airports was a cheap way of using it as an approach aid (a "back course") to the opposite runway to which the LOC or "frount couse" was assigned. these days most modern LOC antennas are directional and have very little back beam, so an't used as B/C any more. A few of the older type are still used, the missed approach at LOWI on the  SPECIAL LOC DME East APPR being one.

the B/C button on the CRJ just tells the A/P to couple using "reverse sensing" when your flying a back course as described in the links and post above.

cessna729.

Thank you!

I've got it.

Do you fly the CRJ?

[cessna729]

Do you fly the CRJ?

Ever since it was a twinkel in Javier's eyes

cessna729.