The B737 Classic Project

[Cameron]

What downsides have you found?

Read the blog that suggests such things just as Morten did.

[alxunru]

The whole polytext thing definitely has its ups and downs. Our solution isn't perfect but for aircraft with large cockpits, where balancing texture resolution and performance is concerned, we like Guy, have gone the polytext route. I wouldn't necessarily call it a requirement for the tiny cockpit of the 737, and based on all of the previews that I've seen from Morten and crew, it certainly doesn't need it. Lovely panels there M

[Albert Slovak]

Ok then

Below the fully functional 737 Pneumatics system In-Sim.

We'll give you more details on the systems soon.

The plan is to start showing a series of short "educational clips" of the 737 systems

so you will be prepared when the big day arrives

Please be sure carefully that all mentioned in your picture switches are correct. It's a "Boeing Policy" - switch positioned DOWN - is ON, UP - OFF. But how your switches positioned is wrong.

[Dhruv]

Please be sure carefully that all mentioned in your picture switches are correct. It's a "Boeing Policy" - switch positioned DOWN - is ON, UP - OFF. But how your switches positioned is wrong.

They have a fully-rated 737 pilot on their team as a technical consultant. I'm fairly sure they're aware of the positions of each and every switch on the panel .

[Salton]

Please be sure carefully that all mentioned in your picture switches are correct. It's a "Boeing Policy" - switch positioned DOWN - is ON, UP - OFF. But how your switches positioned is wrong.

They have a fully-rated 737 pilot on their team as a technical consultant. I'm fairly sure they're aware of the positions of each and every switch on the panel .

I work on 737's and confirm about incorrect "on-off" switches positions on the screenshot. Albert is right, down is always ON, up is OFF.

Anyway, all things are very amazing.

[Litjan]

Thanks, Salton.

I will immediately inform my technical pilot that each and every 737-300 and -500 I fly has all the switches reversed!  How could that have happened? Maybe someone at our maintenance department held the plans upside down? Or maybe Boeing just sold us a bad batch at a cheaper price?  ;D

Be careful when using words as "always", unless you have seen everything that is in this world...

Jan

[hobofat]

I will immediately inform my technical pilot that each and every 737-300 and -500 I fly has all the switches reversed!  How could that have happened? Maybe someone at our maintenance department held the plans upside down? Or maybe Boeing just sold us a bad batch at a cheaper price?

Jan

Hi Jan,

Would love to hear more detail on this.  Looking at 737-300 cockpit photos online on pneumatics panel I see OFF in the UP position, and ON in the DOWN position.  For example, here: http://www.b737.org.uk/images/paneloverhead.jpg

It's a little hard to see through the sarcasm, but I think that you are saying that this not the case in *all* 737-300 and -500 planes?  Particularly the ones that you fly?

Would love to hear more!

Kind Regards.

[Salton]

Ok, Jan. Maybe word "most" is better ? Most boeing 737 switches designed for switching on something by moving switch down and vice versa: off - up. Is it better? And you are right, I have not seen everything in the world. But I've seen a lot of 737's, of course not all of them. And all 737's I've seen have switches reversed to above mentioned screenshots. Even all maintenance documentation I've read does not give any information about the different types of switches. It would be good to know about the existence of another type of switches.

Thank you.

Andrey

[Litjan]

Hi Andrey,

sorry if I came over a bit rough on this.

The solution to the riddle of the reversed switches is actually an airline preference. When Lufthansa planned to buy a large amount of 737´s in the 80s, they asked Boeing to reverse the switch direction. I think it was due to a perceived "human factor" preference of moving switches "intuitively". I you want something, you "pull" it towards yourself. Hence the on position = aft. At least thats what I heard.

So when the topic of switch direction came up in an internal discussion we decided to go with the "Lufthansa" way. Just a preference (and me begging and crying like a little girl). And we MIGHT offer a "Boeing direction version" with a later patch, but that is not a promise.

Most 737´s flying around today are customized in this way or that. Different equipment at different spots and so on. So the IXEG 737 will try to strike a medium ground. If it is any consolence, it will not be 100% Lufthansa, either.

Interesting fact - when other airlines train in our simulators in Frankfurt, the simulator technicians actually switch out the overhead panel for the Boeing version.

And when I rode jumpseat on a Southwest Boeing 737 a couple years ago I almost had a heartattack when looking up and seeing ALL the switches being off!! 

Hope this clarifies things,

Jan

[Salton]

Thanks Jan. Of course, I know about the different customer preferences when they order an airplane equipment, but I'm very surprised about the switches. Really useful information for my experience. My colleagues are very surprised too. I was trained by Lufthansa technicians, but no one of them told me about this. Anyway, it will be difficult for pilot to adapt if he changes the airline. I know many technicians, who start to work at boeings after the russian airplanes. Most of them were very often  mistaken during switchin something because of opposite switching direction against older airplane. So it would be good if you offer a patch with "common boeing switches".

Best regards

Andrey

PS Overhead panel photo for confirmation: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufthansa/Boeing-737-530/0625486/L/

[Morten XPFW]

Right, we offcourse had this discussion in the team already.

We came to the conclusion that after everything Jan and LH are

doing for this project it was an easy choice.

Besides, LH has a major fleet of them, the largest in europe i think, so

here it's "common" 

We expect the aircraft to have many professional users, so if there is a demand

for the other version, we might make one.  Maybe we'll make a -400 with the other one,

we'll see

[Kaphias]

We expect the aircraft to have many professional users, so if there is a demand

for the other version, we might make one.  Maybe we'll make a -400 with the other one,

we'll see

Oh please! How about modeling it after Alaska Airlines' -400s, they are the second largest operator after all... ;D

[tkyler]

I work on 737's and confirm about incorrect "on-off" switches positions on the screenshot.

Of course, I know about the different customer preferences when they order an airplane equipment

I doubt very seriously anybody here will know more about simulating the 737 than the ixeg team.  Any "suggestions as to accuracy" or "unverified,  see how smart I am" commentary is bound to exposure your ignorance.  Avoid superlatives and you'll be fine.

[dpny]

I work on 737's and confirm about incorrect "on-off" switches positions on the screenshot.

Of course, I know about the different customer preferences when they order an airplane equipment

I doubt very seriously anybody here will know more about simulating the 737 than the ixeg team.  Any "suggestions as to accuracy" or "unverified,  see how smart I am" commentary is bound to exposure your ignorance.  Avoid superlatives and you'll be fine.

Except it's already been show he's right: the switches is a Lufthansa preference which goes opposite normal Boeing logic.

[Salton]

to tkyler:

Fist of all I'm not ignorant as you think  . That was not "suggestion as to accuracy" as well as I don't want "to show how smart I am". I just was very surprised about so amazing screenshots with unknown switches for me. So I was maybe even scared "how could it happen that professional Ixeg team is mistaken". I know about the customized equipment, but did not think that switches could be as part of it. As you see even Jan was surprised when saw another type of switches, because he has seen only one type before. I think, that a lot of people who work on 737's do not know about this feature. Ixeg team does really great job, and offcourse I know nothing about the simulating of any airplane.  So I'm fine anyway. Sorry for this offtopic.

to Morten XPFW:

Yes, possibly LH 737th fleet is biggest in Europe, not sure about the world. And offcourse many users want to have the B737 model as real airplanes exist in their airlines. Anyway I'm patiently waiting when your 737 will be ready with any type of switches . Thank you.

With regards

Andrey

[Morten XPFW]

On another note, in the sim (XP) the two position ON/OFF overhead switches are

a click only.  So this means - unlike in real - the pilot "action" will be exactly the same

regardless of reversed switches or not - just a click.  So the difference will be a lot smaller

in the sim than in real where the pilots have the switch positions "programmed"

in their fingers and it feels wrong moving it the opposite direction.

[Litjan]

...and to alleviate worries about he switches some more: I have also used some other products for some other simulators where the switches were portrayed the "Boeing way", and I didn´t feel it was too much of a problem. It does make you look a bit closer (which isn´t a bad thing, as anyone who ever wanted to turn of the engine-anti-ice and accidentially put his fingers on the hydraulic pump switches can tell you  ).

Jan

[tkyler]

DPNY, Let me quote Albert and Salton:

incorrect "on-off" switches

your switches positioned is wrong.

These statements are false and/or incorrect.   They're not mostly incorrect......they're not incorrect when only used by Lufthansa staff, they're incorrect period!   Albert and Salton gambled with their choice of words and got called on it, nothing more or less.  I'd say their communication skills probably improved today.

EDIT:  I'm quite sure you're not ignorant Andrey, quite the opposite actually and I'm sure you have quite a bit of helpful knowledge given your experience.  I tend to be a "stickler" for communication and choosing one word over another or not saying exactly what you mean can cause confusion.

[dpny]

DPNY, Let me quote Albert and Salton:

incorrect "on-off" switches

your switches positioned is wrong.

These statements are false and/or incorrect.   They're not mostly incorrect......they're not incorrect when only used by Lufthansa staff, they're incorrect period!   Albert and Salton gambled with their choice of words and got called on it, nothing more or less.  I'd say their communication skills probably improved today.

EDIT:  I'm quite sure you're not ignorant Andrey, quite the opposite actually and I'm sure you have quite a bit of helpful knowledge given your experience.  I tend to be a "stickler" for communication and choosing one word over another or not saying exactly what you mean can cause confusion.

Let's look at the entire quote:

Please be sure carefully that all mentioned in your picture switches are correct. It's a "Boeing Policy" - switch positioned DOWN - is ON, UP - OFF. But how your switches positioned is wrong.

It was revealed that:

When Lufthansa planned to buy a large amount of 737´s in the 80s, they asked Boeing to reverse the switch direction. I think it was due to a perceived "human factor" preference of moving switches "intuitively". I you want something, you "pull" it towards yourself. Hence the on position = aft.

In other words, he was entirely correct: the Lufthansa preference is wrong for Boeing policy, and was something requested by Lufthansa.

Furthermore:

Interesting fact - when other airlines train in our simulators in Frankfurt, the simulator technicians actually switch out the overhead panel for the Boeing version.

And, finally:

Right, we offcourse had this discussion in the team already.We came to the conclusion that after everything Jan and LH are doing for this project it was an easy choice.

So, the Lufthansa was is wrong with respect to normal Boeing SOE. Morten and friends know this, and their choice was conscious.

I have no idea what you're going on about. Furthermore, this is a stupid thing to argue about, and I'm finished.

[Litjan]

Yes, it is not really worth arguing about 

I think one reason I came about this a bit tense at first was the developers dilemma we face. We are modeling one airplane a lot of people are very excited and emotional about. Call it even "in love with" (speaking for myself  ). So everyone wants the IXEG 737 to be exactly like the one they know, have flown with or worked on.

Yet there are a myriad of choices to make when building THE 737 Classic. And while we certainly like to discuss different features and options we do NOT want to get into a big slugfest of "oh, they are SO wrong! Look at this airliner.net photo I found!"

Please continue to point out any inconsistencies you think you are seeing - and yes, there will probably be even some bugs in our V1.0 (haven´t seen any entertainment software being released without them for the last....er, I think, never ever).

But DO also give us the benefit of the doubt and the chance to clarify things before calling fault on us. We are really into nerdy detail (just modeled the duct temperature in the mix manifold adjusting up or down dependent on recirculation fan use and cabin temperature), so assuming that we got ALL the switches backwards by accident was really a blow to the gut for us geeks! 

Jan

[Ben Russell]

...ooh ooh, you missed a spot!!

[Salton]

Ben Russell, it's not funny and switches are not a "spot".  :-[

assuming that we got ALL the switches backwards by accident

It was not assuming, but incomprehension: "Why do they make "wrong switches"? (as I thought), it's obvious, that team is professional and accurately doing every small detail. Maybe they do that intentionally? But why?". I think, a lot of people (who knows the 737 not only from simulator)wanted to ask this question, but due to the any reasons were silent. I had to keep silent too and look for the answer somewere else to avoid this discussion about the switches and about my ignorance and so on.

All things are clear now. Thanks Jan for clarification.

I guess, we have to finish this discussion about the switches.

Andrey

[Litjan]

By all means, please keep posting and asking about any questions or observations you have. The reason we all jumped a bit was because the words (I looked up the posts to get this right) "wrong" and "incorrect" were used in. These are keywords we will be very sensitive to, because we strive for so much accuracy.

Tom is right, one has to word things very carefully when discussing things over the internet, a lot of message content gets lost when not talking face to face. Then we also need to consider that english is not everyone´s native language and misunderstandings happen.

Stay tuned to this channel,

Jan

[MaidenFan]

Why does it even matter? It's just a switch. It'll seriously take about 10 seconds to get used to.

I don't know why people love to pick away at every little thing a dev does...

[Albert Slovak]

Ok Sorry my english )) May be some thing not fully correct but I happy that you got my point.

But I would like to ask developers, if you make "CLASSIC" version, please make normal switches version as well. I'm flying 733 and it's first time in my life when I found this "abnormal" configuration.

Interesting, if Lufthansa will ask Boeing company to do 737 with reversed flight controls....  ;D