The B737 Classic Project

[Dozer]

Oi, Morten - you've been posting updates in other forums but not this one. What's that all about? Don't forget us here!

[Morten XPFW]

Sorry, wount happen again.

With the latest CRJ development in mind, the IXEG team

is the largest and most capable group of designers, engineers

programmers and pilots on a XP airliner project ever.

So loosing one designer would not be fatal.

These huge projects take alot of time, years, and alot can

happen to those involved.  Having few designers like the CRJ will increase

development time further which again increases the chance of unforseen

things to happen.  This is also why we at IXEG develop some of the

most critical parts of the project first.  Systems, FMC, flightmodel, AP,

VC etc.  3D is not as critical, but thats usually what most projects start

with...  So lets hope the IXEG strategy works

[MaidenFan]

Sorry, wount happen again.

With the latest CRJ development in mind, the IXEG team

is the largest and most capable group of designers, engineers

programmers and pilots on a XP airliner project ever.

So loosing one designer would not be fatal.

These huge projects take alot of time, years, and alot can

happen to those involved.  Having few designers like the CRJ will increase

development time further which again increases the chance of unforseen

things to happen.  This is also why we at IXEG develop some of the

most critical parts of the project first.  Systems, FMC, flightmodel, AP,

VC etc.  3D is not as critical, but thats usually what most projects start

with...  So lets hope the IXEG strategy works

I'm glad you guys have a lot of workers. This should reduce the possibility of having to cancel the project, and I like how you put systems first. Peter Hager did this and it worked pretty good for him.

[Dozer]

Frankly the external model could be a Utah teapot and I'd still buy it if the flight model's accurate, the gauges look like they do in the first screenshot, and the systems are modelled in reasonable depth!

[Kaphias]

Frankly the external model could be a Utah teapot and I'd still buy it if the flight model's accurate, the gauges look like they do in the first screenshot, and the systems are modelled in reasonable depth!

With you on that one my friend! I don't know about anyone else, but I happen to fly from the cockpit…

[JB_XUSA]

With you on that one my friend! I don't know about anyone else, but I happen to fly from the cockpit…

out of my years of posted answers that has got to be the best post I've read. No need for 4 million kazillion tirangles outside. We like to fly from the inside. Nicely said my friend.

[Morten XPFW]

Trip Report:  The search for the perfect XP flightmodel

Last weekend I went to Frankfurt to meet up with Jan, our Lufthansa B737CL Captain.  Him and I are

in charge of the IXEG B737 flightmodel.  The main objective for the trip was a session in the real 737 flightsimulator.

For me personally this was something I always wanted to do, and for the project, this was a great opportunity

to do tests that for obvious reasons can not be done in the real aircraft.  Those are edge of the envelope stuff like Roll-rates,

pitchrates, engine out performance, beta angles in crab etc.

In addition, the general "FEEL" which always has been the big issues of any sim.

After having taken many PPL training hours in the Piper Archer III, I found it a lot easier to get the feel right

when I later decided to make my Piper Archer in XP.  Jan offcourse could tell me how the 737 "feels" but "feel" is not

a very scientific term.  XP - as most designers know - will not give you the right "feel" if you just put in "real" numbers.

So, the only way to get this right is by reverse engineering.

This is was our mission this day, get as much data on the controls we old + offcourse have a lot of fun doing it

As mentioned earlier in this topic, the current flightmodel of the IXEG 737 is pretty much DEAD ON with regard

to the aerodynamics.  Lift, drag, thrust, inertia, engine etc etc in ALL phases of flight is so close it's scary.  We are hitting all

engineering data we have.  The only thing missing was the controls related stuff mentioned above.

So, before I left for Frankfurt, I took the IXEG 737 through many patterns, landings and takeoff's to be prepared

for the real sim.  I took it for dozens of circuits, takeoff-landing hands on.  Things I knew we were gonna do in the real sim.

So, a few hours before the session, we planned the session so that we would be most time-efficient in the sim.

Made a list of all the performance related tests we wanted to do first.  Then move over to the fun part of flying and "feel".

 

So, after dinner at Jan's house we left for FRA and the Lufthansa Training Center.  A HUGE facility!  I counted 19 full motion simulators. 

About 3 for each aircraft type they have.  Below we are the in the B737 section which also had 3 sims.  Ours was the one in the middle.

Delivered by some Canadian company.  With a pricetag of around 8-10 mill Euro each

thats a bit of hardware..

Jan was to take a FO for LOFT training first and the FO had kindly agreed for me to watch. 

This session was planned to last about 4 hours.  In a briefing room we met the instructor pilot and the fresh FO.

For about 30 min they talked about the mission of the evening.  The instructor spoke some german dialect

real fast so I couldn't follow the details, but I pretty much got the essence of what was going to happen.

Tonights events were to happen in and around Nice and Zurich.

We then walked into the sim area, Jan and the FO entered their seats with me and the instructor

right behind with a good view of what they did. I also had a great view of the instructor panel, so I could

see all the tricks that the instructor was planning for the two up in front hehe.. 

The problems just kept coming and the instructor seemed to love his job and grinned at me every time

he pushed a button that added problems for the two up front.

- Flap indicator malfunction

- Cabin pressure loss

- Several engine problems

- Lost ILS signal

- Windshear on final

- Icy runways

After watching these guy's deal with all these problems I must really say my respect for pilots has grown.

The "flying" part is one thing, but analyzing and making the right decisions under huge pressure in abnormal

situations without loosing it was impressive too look at!  Jan can probably fill you in with more more about what went

on there.

After 2 hours of events around Nice, the FO and the instructor needed a break.  Jan asked if we could use the sim

in the break without motion (hydraulics) and that was ok  :dribble:

So I jumped into the left seat with Jan on the right and the instructor placed us at Nice for takeoff.

Pretty much the same way X-Plane starts, with engines and everything running.  Only thing different

from XP is that you need to reset all the "hardware" which is still in the same position as one left the

previous session.  Like flap for landing, spoilers up, parkingbrake on etc.

So Jan prepared a few things and started the TO roll.  Jan did the speed calls, I rotated and lifted off.

So.. I climbed out and almost immediately found the right pitch angle and trim.  It all felt pretty un eventful.

I guess having hours in the Piper was a good investment! 

Jan guided me around the right pattern and I landed safely after 5-10 min on 04L. 

My biggest problems was actually the ground handling after landing.  It was extremely sensitive on the steering tiller,

but Jan told me the real thing was a lot more stable and easier to handle on the ground - so I didn't take it too personal

To save time, I then took off again from the parallel taxiway towards south accompanied by the ###### of the computer

stating it was a taxiway.  A couple of minutes later, the two other guy's came back from their break while Jan was at the controls

and the instructor put on the motion and killed one engine to prank Jan.

Bak to LOFT training and an eventful day over the sky's around snowy Zurich.

While watching the "pro's" I especially tried to note their handling of the aircraft  and get a head start later.

Also tried to remember a bit on the workflow.  Since my main objective on this trip was focus on the controls, not

button-pushing, I didn't really pay too much attention to systems.  It was a bit hard to follow anyway since 2 guy's

were working simultaneously without telling what they really did, although I mostly had an idea.

After they had done the Zurich event, another 2 hrs later we were a bit ahead of time and the instructor asked Jan if they wanted

to practice anything in particular.  This lead to a series of takeoff and landings with engine out scenarios.

GREAT entertaining hehe... (little did I know that I was to try it later).  I can tell you, they have about 100 different

ways to fail the engine.  Anything from a tiny instrument error to the INSANE BANG followed by some shaking

and noise that will scare the ###### out of you if you didn't know what was going on.. VERY realistic.  Especially

the takeoff failures they did, birdstrike etc.  "uncomfortable" would be an huge understatement.

So the Pro session finally came to an end.  The fresh FO did pretty well and the instructor only had a few comments.

We did a quick debrief in the briefingroom.  Had a few homemade sandwiches and headed back for the highlight

of the evening - atleast for me.. .

So, we go back to the sims and meet our instructor of the evening who happened

to be an A320 pilot.  Really nice guy.  Since Jan would take care of me with regard to the flying from the right seat,

the instructors job will be to run the sim software and put us in the situations we request.

In our seats and ready ( Jan right, me left).

The first takeoff was really an experience.  It feels exactly like the real deal. 

The sense of speed and motion is incredible. 

I kind of got out of the count, but during the time I did about

- 8 Landings

> Calm about 3x

> 25 kt xwind

> 35 kt xwind

> CAT1 (200 fet ceiling)

> Engine failure, single engine landing

> Night landing

- 5 Takeoffs

- We did a bunch of planned maneuvers for performance testing.

I'll not go into detail on all we did, but the videos will give you a good idea.

They are uncompressed for quality, so pretty big files. 

To save sim time, all went on at Frankfurt Main Airport RWY 25R.

All approaches are flown hands on.  I'm in the left seat flying, Jan in the

right filming and commenting.

My first landing (with full motion) :

First Landing

25 kits from 90 deg left, coming in with a crab.

25 kt Xwind landing

Handflying the ILS down. CAT1 means ceilling at 200 feet (60m)

CAT 1 Landing

I'll let you judge my landings, but here are Jan's (737 captain) expert comments

"All your landings were not only survivable - in fact the airplane would not have taken any damage from them at all.

As a matter of fact, I did a lot of landings in real life that were harder than your hardest one, good job. It does really

show that you have real-life flying experience, and also have the "numbers" for the 737 at hand.

Not many people will do a 35kt x-wind landing like that "  :thumbsup:

My subjective impressions from the sim session with regard to flightmodel.

What surprised me the most was;

1. How heavy the real controls are.  Especially in roll!

Looking at the roll test video we did, it also appears to be a bit of roll intertia/gyration

since when I turn the wheel back/oposite (you can see it) it takes a moment before the acft reacts.

and rolls bak.

2. Pitch was also real heavy but I had expected that.  I was a bit surprised of the high pitchrate

we got on the test on final with flap tho.

3. Rudder was about the same as my Piper, also pretty heavy. 

According to documentation I have, rudder pedal force needed is about 40kg at Vref on the 737.

4. Throttle travel felt really looong and took a while getting used to.

It took a long time for the engine to stabilize after adjusting thrust, several seconds, so you

had to look back and forth to check if you had the right N1 after an adjustment.

Guess the pilots have this in their "hands" how much to move the lever to get the thrust they want.

5. Extending the speedbrakes didn't really feel much.  No attitude change or anything, just a little shake.

6.  Pitch trim did pretty much what you wanted it to.  1 click usually took care of it if I was a bit off.

7.  Flap extension was pretty much as I had expected from Jan's description.  The 30-40 position you really

felt on your body increased drag and having to counter pitching on the controls.

So all in all, the plane felt a bit more "docile" than I had expected.  It was really precise on the controls and was

a joy to fly hands on

Having just been a passenger on the real 737 to FRA, I got the same exact feeling

being a passenger when Jan and the FO were flying.  Even the bumps in the concrete felt exactly like real!

Flap deployment, rotate etc all felt as in real.  Turbulence and sounds etc etc, very realistic.

Really thought I was in the real thing after a few minutes.

Only part that felt a bit weird was taxi in turns.  I got a bit dizzy actually, not sure exactly why,

but I think it was something with the visuals.  Ground handling seemed over sensitive with the tiller

and I had problems making it go straight.

About the scenery, it was very nice.  The airports were very detailed.

The colors seemed a bit desaturated though.  Don't remember seeing any trees.

It had photoscenery around the airports and major buildings/obstacles/stadiums were modeled.

We flew towards a high building and we actually got aural warning of terrain.

There were cars moving on the highway.  There was AI traffic that the instructor

could control.  The detail on those was not that good though.  A bit out

of shape as well it seemed to me.

I especially liked the cloud layers and fog, much better than XP. (see CAT movie)

Also the wind shear was much better.  Unlike XP you could hardly feel it.

I think I can guarantee, this is not the last time I did something like this.  I strongly recommend

it to all simmers if you can afford it.  A memory for life (Pluss you can brag you can land a real airliner afterwards )

So when you read this, we already have done the adjustments needed to the controls and the aircraft

flightmodel is 99% done.  And I can guarantee you, if you do well in the IXEG 737 you WILL do well in the real sim and real aircraft.

Happy flying to all.

[MaidenFan]

Damn, you guys are really getting into it. I can't wait to see your results.

[NoutvanZon]

Looks like you had a great and useful experience Morten! Good luck with further development of the project.

On that note: will you start a website soon with i.e. background information on the IXEG team?

Nout

[Morten XPFW]

Thanks,

The IXEG site will be here;

http://ixeg.net/

[Lukasz]

Thanks for writing about the experience! Now I'm even more interested in your project

[hobofat]

Thanks for writing about the experience! Now I'm even more interested in your project

Ay, it was a nice write-up indeed!

[Simmo W]

Great background Morten, sounds like u had a ball. Funny, you look like the wizened ole Cap'n and Jan the n00b FO! Looking forward to more updates.

[Morten XPFW]

More fine-tuning of the ground handling and controls.

Below is a 30kt Xwind from 90 deg, 5 deg shear, 3 kt gust landing.

(Which is the B737 certification limit)

30kt Xwind handling

As you can see, not too eventful.  Try this in another XP heavy..

M

[NoutvanZon]

You are indeed right Morten! Very difficult to pull off in another airliner.

I imagine the relative stability is not due to tons of computers like found in an A388 however due to the fact that you guys are actually getting the flightmodel / handling / controls like the real thing which has been designed to fly stable?

In that case, respect for the Boeing 733 engineers, hehe

Nout

[samen]

Pretty cool! Were you able to correct the ground model for this plane as well because I think I see a pretty good improvement when the plane is on the ground.

[Oliver]

Nice video Morten! I know the first thing I'll be doing with the 733! 

[Morten XPFW]

Ground handling is improved by "conventional" methods in PlaneMaker only.

This is actually one of the most important aspects of an aircraft design, otherwise

your aircraft will be useless in a tiny bit of crosswind.

Company logo on coffee cup is offcourse in a separate layer for easy repaint 

[FlorianR]

wow, the detail is astounding !

[Morten XPFW]

Recommended setting for this video is HD and high volume

&feature=player_embedded

[FlorianR]

WOW  , incredible detail. I love the dirt and grungy textures, especially the Lufthansa coffee cup. Looks amazing guys, congrats!

One question: will the exterior be redone as well?

Cheers,

FlorianR

[Morten XPFW]

Thanks - yes everything will be new!

M

[crs]

Sold.

Looking good!

Kind regards,

K.

[Jack Skieczius]

impressive to say the least.

and the video was put together real well to, may i ask what program u guys used to edit it?

[Cat]

Very nice! I really enjoyed all the videos!