Souf Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Very very nice Tony!!!! You're the one!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikan Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Hi Tony, Thanks for your update regarding the status of W2XP, very interesting approach, indeed! It sure looks nice and it makes a lot of sense performance-wise and is more aligned with X-Plane's fundamental concept of a "plausible" scenery (as opposed to 100% realistic). However, I'm one of those guys that will probably sorely miss the unprecedented level of realism based on building-footprint accuracy in the present version. Overall, I think it provides a better level of "recognition" with reality even though the details can be way off compared to the real thing at times... For VFR and helicopter flying I think it's more important to have buildings placed as realistically as possible in terms of their footprint and size whereas the type, color and regional properties are somewhat secondary... Perhaps going back all the way to a pure facade-based approach (like with OSM2XP) might provide better results in the long run... I would be interested to know if you see that both concepts will be able to coexist and if so, how? I mean, one possible scenario would be, that your new approach would kick-in automatically either in those areas with poor OSM building-level coverage (as with today's smart exclusions) or at the opposite end of the spectrum, e.g. where OSM is so detailed over big areas that it will ultimately kill performance (i.e. big urban areas)... In any case, I'm really happy to know that you're still committed to the project and haven't given up - keep it up please! Edited May 17, 2015 by Daikan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi Daikan, nice to see you still around on the forum. However, I'm one of those guys that will probably sorely miss the unprecedented level of realism based on building-footprint accuracy in the present version In this regards, nothing will change. You can still generate the scenery as before (i.e. building-footprints), it's just that it's becoming virtually impossible to create enough objects (without killing performance and my sanity) to render something like the below: This is a town near to where I live, and I've visited here a few times in real life. Comparing this to the OSM approach, this looks much more believable at both street level, and hovering over at 200ft in a helicopter.. but as already stated, the buildings don't exactly match the ground textures (Here it is unnoticeable because you can't actually see the ground textures). Unfortunately the more plausible the scenery the less accurate it is, and vice versa :-). If anyone can think up a way to get the buildings to match up exactly and not require thousands of models then please let me know :-). Perhaps going back all the way to a pure facade-based approach (like with OSM2XP) might provide better results in the long run... Simheaven released a facade only scenery using W2XP, so this is already possible. It improves performance somewhat and the buildings are more accurate, but the problem is they look like lego bricks and not very realistic and it puts lots of people off immediately. Facades work really well for industrial buildings, but fail when trying to render anything which has a slanted roof, etc.. Plus, to get accurate looking facades, you'd still need hundreds of different wall definitions and configurations to make it somewhat believable. I would be interested to know if you see that both concepts will be able to coexist and if so, how? I mean, one possible scenario would be, that your new approach would kick-in automatically either in those areas with poor OSM building-level coverage (as with today's smart exclusions) or at the opposite end of the spectrum, e.g. where OSM is so detailed over big areas that it will ultimately kill performance (i.e. big urban areas)... Well that's actually what it's already doing to some extent. Industrial zones and tall buildings are still shown as before, but groups of buildings are grouped together and turned into autogen. The biggest problem I found is how does W2XP know that there are simply no buildings in a particular area or if there are buildings in real life but there is a lack of data. Either way, it can still be configured to render autogen similar to smart exclusions (i.e. Only in places where there is no data). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caruso Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi Tony, Thank you for keeping on further developing W2XP. For me it is by far the most important scenery add-on and made my virtual flying by 100% more enjoyable. When I was just about to post a reply to your latest developement news I saw Daikan's post. That saved me a lot of typing as I mostly wanted to comment your news in a similar way Your posted images look very promising in terms of regional atmosphere and plausibility. Also any developement that helps to improve performance is more than welcome (I am pushing the sim to its limits since I am using UHD mesh, photo scenery and W2XP HD sceneries at the same time...). Still the building-footprint accuracy of the current version of W2XP is a very important element of the enjoiment for me. Maybe this has a lot to do with the fact that I use photo scenery and fly mostly the area of Central Switzerland which I know very well. It would probably irritate me to see buildings that are not alligned with the underlying photo scenery. But maybe I am overestimating this effect? Could you possibly post some pics showing the examples from your Update Post more from above so we can better see how W2XP fits with the underlying photo scenery? Facades work really well for industrial buildings, but fail when trying to render anything which has a slanted roof, etc.. Plus, to get accurate looking facades, you'd still need hundreds of different wall definitions and configurations to make it somewhat believable. Can facades only be used to generate rectangular flat roof buildings? (What about the hedges and docks that W2XP generates? Aren't those facades too?)Or could this type of building be generated using facades?https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4sqf0baxrd5ttu/S1810002.JPG?dl=0 Could it be a compromise to generate heavily built up inner city areas (where the buidlings form blocks along the streets and the underlying photoscenery can't be seen anyway) in the new way and on the other hand to generate rural areas and villages with the old building-footprint accurate method? Keep it up and let me know if there is anything I can help with (besides creating objects). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Could you possibly post some pics showing the examples from your Update Post more from above so we can better see how W2XP fits with the underlying photo scenery? Sorry for the dark shots, I have a low gamma setting on my laptop, but you can get the idea. Here is a village which is completely autogen, and although it doesn't line up to the buildings perfectly, it still looks better than having nothing here at all and to my eyes at least, it looks quite natural. Can facades only be used to generate rectangular flat roof buildings? (What about the hedges and docks that W2XP generates? Aren't those facades too?)Or could this type of building be generated using facades? Well if you have the time and patience, you can do that with facades. Facades can do all sorts, I've used them to do fences, docks, hedges, etc.. The v10 format allows strings of meshes to be created which can be used to make fancy fences, etc. However, over large areas performance is terrible. It is possible to do slanted roofs, but the problem is that the facade will then only work with very specific sizes, so we are back to square one in regards to needing thousands of objects "or walls". If you remember from the OSM2XP days, some roofs didn't close completely at the top, and this is because there doesn't seem to be a nice easy way to create a slant which varies based on building size (You simply define an angle and hope it meets at the top, which it won't if the object is too big, or small). I could script one huge facade with many different wall sizes for the roofs, but I'd imagine it would kill performance very quickly. Could it be a compromise to generate heavily built up inner city areas (where the buidlings form blocks along the streets and the underlying photoscenery can't be seen anyway) in the new way and on the other hand to generate rural areas and villages with the old building-footprint accurate method? Well, just to make things clear, I'm not replacing World2XPlane with autogen. You can simply keep using the OSM building-footprint approach. The autogen is being designed for people who don't use photoscenery (and since Simheaven removed the photoscenery, this has become very common), and for areas with bad data. I just happen to prefer how the autogen looks as opposed to the OSM approach. Remember, W2XP is configurable, so you can pretty much configure to work as you like. Edited May 17, 2015 by tonywob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikaslan Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Very nice approach Tony!As for a number of reasons I don't want to use photoscenery, I am really looking forward to this w2xp implementation. ETA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 ETA? No idea sorry, there is still a lot to do for other countries such as Norway, Italy, Greece, Croatia, etc... Not forgetting the immense task of other countries outside of Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crisk73 Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) Tony, what's the params to tweak to get a facade-only scenery like those made by PilotBalu? I've tried with generate-roof-wall-colors=true, enable-osm-3d=false, but I get a generation failure error. Thanks. Edited May 18, 2015 by crisk73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 You just have to remove all the <rule type="object"> rules for buildings. Search for residential.csv, industrial.csv, commercial.csv and delete them. It will then use facades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikaslan Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 2. This is alpilotx's HD mesh v33. This is HD mesh plus Simheaven's w2xp scenery. It seems like it's built with no exclusions at all (?)4. And here it is with no underlying HD mesh. Simheaven's w2xp scenery only Just a thought on the above: As you can see in the screenshots, when I use Simheaven's w2xp overlayed on HD mesh v3 then the default autogen (buildings at least) seems not to be excluded (screenshot #3).When I disable HD mesh then the exclusions seem to work ok (screenshot #4). Any ideas on this? Here is my scenery_packs.ini---------------------------------------------------------------------------I1000 versionSCENERYSCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Baltimore_Washington/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/1S2 - Darrington Municipal Airport/SCENERY_PACK_DISABLED Custom Scenery/BIRK_10_Reykjavik/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/CYYC Calgary/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/CZNL_Nelson_Norman_Stibbs 2.6 - xp10 dkm/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KCLS - Chehalis-Centralia Airport/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KHHR Hawthorne Municipal Airport2/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/PAAQ ( PALMER MUNI AK )/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/PAWS ( WASILLA AK )/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KLAL - Lakeland (airshow version)/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/SBGL/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KPHX - Phoenix Sky Harbor Intl/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KLAX - Los Angeles International/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KLAX - Los Angeles Orthophotos/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KOTH - North Bend Regional Airport - Ortho/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/CYYZ Toronto Pearson Intl (ISDG)/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Jackson_Hole/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KFYJ WestPoint Version 1.0/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSAN - San Diego/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSFO - San Francisco/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSFO - Traffic Golden Gate Bridge/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSFO - Traffic Oakland Bay Bridge/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/USA_AK_PAWD/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/USA_AK_PAWD_Orthophoto/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/USA_AK_PAWD_Terrain_mesh/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/PAKT - Ketchikan International/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/PAVD - Valdez Pioneer Field (Alaska)/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/PAJN - Juneau International/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Nepal Lukla-Everest VNLK v10.3/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EBBR Brussels/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EDDF Frankfurt/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EDDM Munich/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EDDT Berlin Tegel/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EDLP Paderborn-Lippstadt/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EGBB Birmingham/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EGKK London-Gatwick/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EGLL Heathrow/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EGPF Glasgow/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EGSS London-Stansted/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - EIDW Dublin/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LEBL Barcelona/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LEMD Madrid/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LFMN Nice Cote d Azur X/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LFPG Paris CDG/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LFPO Paris Orly/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LPFR Faro/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Aerosoft - LSGG Genf/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Global Airports/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSEA Demo Area/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/LOWI Demo Area/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/NYC/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Cheap_vegas/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Salt Lake City XPX/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/landmarks xpx/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/landmarks2/SCENERY_PACK_DISABLED Custom Scenery/w2xp_Canada_osm-ag/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/w2xp_Iceland_hd/SCENERY_PACK_DISABLED Custom Scenery/iceland-latest/SCENERY_PACK_DISABLED Custom Scenery/alaska-latest/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/south-america-latest/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/uk-full/SCENERY_PACK_DISABLED Custom Scenery/Urban_Maxx_Extreme_V2_3D/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/OpenSceneryX/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/RD_Library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/R2_Library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/ff_library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/RE_Library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/ruscenery/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/Vehicle Library Extension/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/The_Handy_Objects_Library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/XAirportScenery/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/000_Madagascar_Lib/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/People_LIB/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/CDB_Library/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/world-models/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_Treelines_Farms_Europe_v2/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_Treelines_Farms_North_America_v2/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_Treelines_Japan_v2/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_new_zealand_overlay/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_new_zealand/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_uhd_global_scenery1/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzz_hd_global_scenery3/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/zzzz_FSE_Airports/SCENERY_PACK Custom Scenery/KSEA Demo Terrain/--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Number 3 has smart exclusions as it has industrial buildings along a road. Anyway, It depends on how the exclusions are created (They have to be rectangular), it looks like it's worked fine to me apart from the industrial buildings. It's a config option which Simheaven used which defines the maximum area that can be blank before an exclusion is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikaslan Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks Tony. I also deleted all the forest rules that place treelines using the directive <perimeter-only>. I just couldn't stand treelines inside airports.Now I am experimenting with building heights using the adaptive-height option.I still get some trees inside facade buildings though. A temporary 'solution' may be to force the low (industrial?) building height to be taller than the trees... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubajuan_new Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Hi Tony first let me thank you for your work, is an amazing tool and the results are spectacular. I was looking at the OSM data for Mexico and unfortunately there is not a lot of building info. However the INEGI (Mexican Geographic Institute) has available the complete cadastre (free download), that is the official every single building in the country, not just buildings but is like OSM data on steroids. I was wandering if i is possible to use this data to generate World2Xplane sceneries instead. Importing this data into open street map is not a simple task since it would overwrite all the available info. Olso I would like to contribute with some Latin American looking models to be included in the library, which i believe would work as well for some parts of Asia and Africa. were can i find the details of the requirements and procedure to do so? Once agin Thanks for your time and dedication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I was wandering if i is possible to use this data to generate World2Xplane sceneries instead Yes, I did a similar thing for the UK, however the version for working with non-OSM data isn't publically released because it's difficult to use and requires scripting. However, if you tell me where I can get this data from and if it's compatible and not in several hundred different downloads then I will convert the lot into a scenery and upload it Edited May 20, 2015 by tonywob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Olso I would like to contribute with some Latin American looking models to be included in the library, which i believe would work as well for some parts of Asia and Africa. were can i find the details of the requirements and procedure to do so? That's great :-). Can you PM me your email address and I'll get in touch and tell you how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaxp Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 BTW , with this new approach , will we still need to install libraries like R2_LIBRARY etc...?The thing that I don't like about those libraries , is that there are too much of them. I really can't wait for this development t be completed , this will finally give every region it's uniqness. As for performance , could you please post some shots from big cities (such as prague , munich...) with the FPS counter visible , also knowing your settings would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caruso Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Hi Tony,This thread may be of interest to you. It also mentions these guys work. Did you know their scenery system project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caruso Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Reducing the German building set to 100 different types of models I think will really improve the loading and performance time (Just, I wish someone could come along and help create/identify these 100 buildings). Hi Tony,You posted this a while ago. If it hasn't been done yet I could help to reduce the number of German buidlings to the desired 100 types. As I don't leave in Germany I would be able to do it only from a Swiss perspective. If that'd be fine just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted June 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 BTW , with this new approach , will we still need to install libraries like R2_LIBRARY etc...? Agreed with the number of libraries and no, I've purposely not included any third-party libraries because of previous issues. This thread may be of interest to you. It also mentions these guys work. Did you know their scenery system project? Sorry for the late response, I've been busy with real-life :-). Regarding xlabs, yep I was aware of their work, but to be honest, I'm not sure what they are intending on doing it with it. (XHT was originally supposed to be OSM2XP), Either way, I think it's a commercial project and not something they are intending on realising for free (or releasing the tools they use to make the scenery), but I could be wrong. Either way, the W2XP autogen is a very similar approach but on a larger scale. I did contact both XHT-Labs and Truscenery some time ago, and neither responded, which I can presume means they aren't interested in working together Regarding the new European project, I'm really surprised by this. Again, this is another case of developers not wanting to work together. I don't think we need yet another European library, and their efforts would be best directed working on the European Library which LyAvain did for Simheaven. I've simply given up trying to get other developers to work together, and I believe if all of these projects came together and coordinated, then we would have some amazing scenery, but this is unlikely ever to happen. Also, I really wish somebody would concentrate on the US or other areas, as Europe is already quite good in X-Plane. You posted this a while ago. If it hasn't been done yet I could help to reduce the number of German buidlings to the desired 100 types. As I don't leave in Germany I would be able to do it only from a Swiss perspective. If that'd be fine just let me know. I'd really appreciate if you could do this just for Switzerland. I live quite close to Germany and have a good idea of how some areas should look. Additionally, even if you don't find any suitable models, if you could find typical pictures of buildings (e.g. In Google Street View), then I can use these to give the Swiss autogen a nice regional look. I'm currently doing Norway, which looks real nice when used with HD Mesh and the Kartverket data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daikan Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Tony, I'm not sure but I think I might have stumbled over a problem with objects/road.net which gets included with the generated scenery (this is with the public 0.7.2 beta) IMO line 61 is wrong: Currently it is:ROAD_DRAPED 3 250 0.10 0.00But it should be:ROAD_DRAPED 3 256 0.10 0.00Can you confirm? Also, I wonder why a separate (updated) road.net is included with the generated scenery when instead there already is a network definition which is part of the world models library (virtual path "network/w2xp.net")... EDIT: I think there are also problems with the way the powerline pylon/tower objects are currently referenced in road.net: I seem to recall that the "OBJECT_GRADED VERT" directive does not work with virtual (library) paths and therefore the objects need to be referenced relative to the location where road.net resides... I was wrong: Virtual paths for providing an asset reference in "OBJECT_GRADED VERT" work just fine However, there seems to be a problem with the vector definition of the second vector rule in the current config.xml which causes it not to render (changing the ROAD_DRAPED directive as suggested above didn't seem to help)... I ended up fixing this by using the standard vector definition "220" as provided by the built-in roads.net (e.g. lib/g10/roads.net). Edited June 10, 2015 by Daikan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caruso Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I'd really appreciate if you could do this just for Switzerland. I live quite close to Germany and have a good idea of how some areas should look. Additionally, even if you don't find any suitable models, if you could find typical pictures of buildings (e.g. In Google Street View), then I can use these to give the Swiss autogen a nice regional look. I'm currently doing Norway, which looks real nice when used with HD Mesh and the Kartverket data. Hi TonyI was ill last week and not in the x-plane world. I am currently testing some of his w2xp sceneries for PilotBalu. Next week I should have time for other x-plane related things. I'll then PM you in regards of the "Swiss Look". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crisk73 Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Downloaded the new D+A+CH (16 Jun) from Simheaven. Again it takes 15 min to load EDDF like before. Anything changed? Thanks. Edited June 19, 2015 by crisk73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted June 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Don't know to be honest, if they've used the same config then you won't notice much difference. The poor loading times are one of the reasons I want to do autogen. It does/should load a little faster in 10.40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crisk73 Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Thanks Tony. The frame rate is ok, maybe slightly better than before, but the loading time is exactly as twice. Could it be I had no smart exclusions before and now with them enabled things have got worse? Edit: did a test on my SSD (default Cessna XP10.36, objects mega tons, streets tons) Previous hd config (no autogen=Simheaven xd format) EDDF loads in 4.20 mins Actual Simheaven EDDF loads in 7.10 mins Edited June 19, 2015 by crisk73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonywob Posted June 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Yes exactly, smart-exclusions are a killer and will increase processing time. The sim has to merge different sceneries together with complicated exclusions and so increases the loading times. I was hoping 10.40 would help, but it only seems to speed things up with simpler scenery. I'm trying to replace the smart-exclusions with autogen which does speed things up, but there is such a huge amount of data that it simply takes X-Plane a long time to process. Remember, it is loading a full 1x1 degree tile in one go (with thousands of buildings, object, forests) and then processing them. In Germany, there is lots of data, so it's just slow unfortunately I've tried various things to try and get round this, but at the moment everything I do doesn't seem to make much difference. Maybe one day I can work with Ben and see if he can help out, but it's very difficult to get hold of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.