tkyler Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) This needs to be the definite statement by IXEG as to what is "close to release"....so spread the word far and wide when folks ask! When using the word "close", you really must clarify further the relative relationship of the items described to be close. In the case of our 737, there really are two contexts in which to think of "close". We could say that: 1.) We are close to having all the features in that we want in for V1.0 2.) We are close to the release date These are NOT the same. For example, If I put 1,000,000 needles in a haystack with 10,000,000 hay needles, you will find a lot very quickly. As you get "close" to finding the last one, the time to find said last one may drag out significantly.....but you are indeed "close" to finding them all. As soon as you find the last needle, you are done. If its sooner rather than later, then you are simply done earlier. IXEG is close to "having all the features in that we want for V1.0" We are bug chasing...and we are very good at it. We are ensuring we do not have bugs that have plagued other products...we are looking far, wide and very deep for bugs in our FMS to have the greatest possible reliability when releasing. That is what we all want...that is what we have all been waiting for...that is why our team is doing it! There is a generalization that if you are "close" to finishing the feature list, then you are close to releasing...but you cannot relate the two directly. We know that as soon as we are happy with these last few features stability, we will release. could be 3 weeks, could be another 5-7, could be more......what we can tell you is that we are working very aggressively to be satisfied with the completion of our V1.0 features list and we are close to having all those features implemented. I assure you, getting it right is much more paramount than getting it out 4 weeks sooner. We are after a feature list here, not a time-frame. Take solace in knowing that we are close to having the feature list complete and quit bitching about the time frame. Relatively speaking, we're in a good spot now and kudos to those who understand and awaiting patiently, you will be rewarded! -tkyler Edited February 8, 2016 by tkyler 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuterMarker Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 49 minutes ago, tkyler said: [...]and quit bitching about the time frame.[...] I'm totally on your side and I don't care when it's going to be released. But if you sort of set a deadline on multiple ocasions (the end of 2015 was the deadline most Forum users were expecting), only using the word "close" for weeks and weeks after not meeting that line shouldn't make you wonder about people "bitching" to find out when it's finally going to be released. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 @kielsf4 I don't think that's what Tom is referring to. There's no wonder about why people are/have asked. The recent closed thread about a release timeline shows perfectly what Tom means. People will receive an answer they may not like (as in, no release time to announce) and go nutty in following posts trying to tell how it should be. It's the sense of entitlement from that point forward where "bitching" comes in. In the end, IXEG and X-Aviation are in a business. Money comes from that, and that results in two things that should be obvious to folks that somehow isn't: 1. We want this out more than you guys do. 5 years is a long time of devotion, and we want to see the reward. 2. We owe it to our customers to put out a product that does not fail, and to earn thier trust by doing so. Exchanging money is a funny thing, and taking it for something not yet finished is really unacceptable. Rushing it out the door is going to do us more harm than good. From OUR side of the fence, it's frustrating to see folks react in the manner which some have. Definitely not all (or near it), but enough to flare some frustration. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgeiss Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, tkyler said: We are bug chasing...and we are very good at it. We are ensuring we do not have bugs that have plagued other products...we are looking far, wide and very deep for bugs in our FMS to have the greatest possible reliability when releasing. That is what we all want...that is what we have all been waiting for...that is why our team is doing it! Out of curiosity (no, I definitely don't want to be a beta tester, I'd rather buy the finished product and enjoy all the hard work you guys have done ): Do you also have beta testers which are pretty new to flight simming in general, or at least don't have much experience in flying FMS-equipped airliners? Because I can imagine that some bugs are not found when the product is used in the way it's intended to be, but when people perform actions that an experienced simmer (or real world pilot) wouldn't ever think of, even when he tries to mistreat the plane. Edited February 9, 2016 by mgeiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 46 minutes ago, mgeiss said: Out of curiosity (no, I definitely don't want to be a beta tester, I'd rather buy the finished product and enjoy all the hard work you guys have done ): Do you also have beta testers which are pretty new to flight simming in general, or at least don't have much experience in flying FMS-equipped airliners? Because I can imagine that some bugs are not found when the product is used in the way it's intended to be, but when people perform actions that an experienced simmer (or real world pilot) wouldn't ever think of, even when he tries to mistreat the plane. Yes, we have this covered and do find bugs by going about things in the non-conventional airliner pilot way. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgeiss Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Nice! I also work in product development (although cars, not software), but I guess the process of finding bugs is similar. More than once did somebody outside of our subject area find something very simple like a wrong hole diameter, and we didn't see the bug despite looking at the part every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkyler Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, kielsf4 said: I'm totally on your side and I don't care when it's going to be released. But if you sort of set a deadline on multiple ocasions (the end of 2015 was the deadline most Forum users were expecting), only using the word "close" for weeks and weeks after not meeting that line shouldn't make you wonder about people "bitching" to find out when it's finally going to be released. We totally appreciate you being on our side...and to your point, It definitely doesn't make me wonder at all, which is why I posted the clarification. So I'd say the 'quit bitching' request would be 'as of the post' . I honestly don't mind folks grumbling, I mean, finding the wherewithal to complete a project like this takes every motivational trick in the book...and I do not mean trick as in "trick the consumers"....I mean trick as in trick myself to keep working on it day after day, I tell myself I'm close, almost there, nearly done....I keep a perpetual carrot in front of my face to keep my feet moving. The reason it bothers me not if folks grumble.....is because at the end of the day, I know that we will be the only ones who will have done it and if we don't do it, it won't get done....so folks have to take what they get from us, and we have to take what we get from them. It will all be fine soon Regarding bugs, without a doubt we expect bugs....1000s of fingers is better than 10 or so....but we have to do our due diligence in finding as many as we can and towards that end, we do try what newbies will try and we try crazy combinations too...and writing code to protect against really crazy entries can add several days of work in some cases, it is one of the more frustrating aspects of this bug chasing process. -tkyler Edited February 9, 2016 by tkyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everstalker Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hello, first sorry for my english, for me I can say that I was very sad that it comes not out in late 2015 but I understand the statement. I think many people waiting patiently.do not fret about the negative posts. I think the most people are waiting and not write in this forum. best regards Chris 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, tkyler said: This needs to be the definite statement by IXEG as to what is "close to release"....so spread the word far and wide when folks ask! When using the word "close", you really must clarify further the relative relationship of the items described to be close. In the case of our 737, there really are two contexts in which to think of "close". We could say that: 1.) We are close to having all the features in that we want in for V1.0 2.) We are close to the release date These are NOT the same. For example, If I put 1,000,000 needles in a haystack with 10,000,000 hay needles, you will find a lot very quickly. As you get "close" to finding the last one, the time to find said last one may drag out significantly.....but you are indeed "close" to finding them all. As soon as you find the last needle, you are done. If its sooner rather than later, then you are simply done earlier. IXEG is close to "having all the features in that we want for V1.0" We are bug chasing...and we are very good at it. We are ensuring we do not have bugs that have plagued other products...we are looking far, wide and very deep for bugs in our FMS to have the greatest possible reliability when releasing. That is what we all want...that is what we have all been waiting for...that is why our team is doing it! There is a generalization that if you are "close" to finishing the feature list, then you are close to releasing...but you cannot relate the two directly. We know that as soon as we are happy with these last few features stability, we will release. could be 3 weeks, could be another 5-7, could be more......what we can tell you is that we are working very aggressively to be satisfied with the completion of our V1.0 features list and we are close to having all those features implemented. I assure you, getting it right is much more paramount than getting it out 4 weeks sooner. We are after a feature list here, not a time-frame. Take solace in knowing that we are close to having the feature list complete and quit bitching about the time frame. Relatively speaking, we're in a good spot now and kudos to those who understand and awaiting patiently, you will be rewarded! -tkyler If you look carefully and objectively, you'll see that no-one's really bitching about the time frame or having to wait for the product specifically. No-one's questioning your ability to bug chase or your skills in developing a fantastic product. No one's questioning the hard work and dedication that has been invested. If that was the case, there wouldn't be this much interest and buzz over what will obviously be a game changing product. But, whether you like it or not, the time frame questions (and they have only really been just polite questions) are evidence that you have probably mismanaged the expectations of your target market with the wording and timing of communications. How do you think your potential customers feel when you tell them to "stop bitching" as a result? It sounds like you are reprimanding users for not understanding your definition of the word "close". The thing is, you always know what you mean, and your way of expressing it seems clear to you, because you understand yourself perfectly. So when there's a breakdown, it always feels like the other guy's fault. Communication problems are only partially based on "bad communication skills" too. They are even more based on each participant having different starting information (with each being unaware that the other person doesn't share his information) and differing context or frameworks, e.g. one person thinks they're talking about "a few weeks" and the other thinks they're talking about all the component parts in the "needle and haystack" analogy. This is just feedback, not a debate. All the best with this product. I'm sure it will be a real success. Edited February 9, 2016 by Daniel 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkyler Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Daniel said: now YOU'RE responding badly I disagree with this statement Daniel, though my framework is probably different. I do generally agree with most of your post but it doesn't really change my framework any. -tkyler Edited February 9, 2016 by tkyler 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah I edited that as it didn't really represent what I was trying to say and was too aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkyler Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) no worries Daniel, it was your frank perspective, not aggressive to me at all given my framework. I really do totally agree with your commentary....communication can be a precarious thing and I'm quite intrigued by the philosophy of it all. Most of us here just enjoy conversation of any type....I really do like to chat with folks and I, by no means, believe I'll really change anyones mind, just too many people but frankly, I like the diversity. ....and I have opened my big mouth more than once. Overall, this is a good getaway from coding though, after a few hours I'll say to myself, "self...see what's going on in the forums"....then type and run Back to the keyboard -tkyler Edited February 9, 2016 by tkyler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloB Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) I think that it may not have been the perfect management of potential customer's expectations at the end of last year. Maybe a short - sorry guys, we screwed up - would have been a better way to deal with it. Anyway, I clearly see how much pressure is on the team and I perfectly understand that it must be hard to manage their own expectations in order to keep them going. The last months must have been terribly difficult in this regard - so I have abolutely no hard feelings. Sad to see how so many get upset by this. Boy, I can't even get my kids dressed in time for kindergarten (the second hardest thing in the world after coding a FMS). Fingers crossed for finding the last needle soon. Flo Edited February 9, 2016 by FloB wording 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrigan Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Daniel said: How do you think your potential customers feel when you tell them to "stop bitching" as a result? I for one, feel quite delighted. Edited February 9, 2016 by Morrigan 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Russell Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I can think of a couple of other product releases from last year where a "sorry guys we screwed up" apology was definitely called for. People paid good money for bad products. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkyler Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Just now, FloB said: Sad to see how so many get upset by this Actually Flo, I myself don't believe this is the case on the larger scale. As an engineer, I'm kind of a numbers/statistics guy and I am always 'arguing' with the team and others that the forums here aren't necessarily representative of the overall population. We just tend to be the most vocal ones and part of what I call "forum culture"....so perhaps within the context of the forums it would seem a lot get upset, but I'd bet if you rounded up all the users with 'negative commentary as to the time frame', maybe you'll find 20? 30? a few more or less... out of probably 1000s of customers? I believe most folks get it...we all do work of some kind, we all have someone else to give account to, we all feel pressure from somewhere and we all fumble around at one time or another. Life goes on...for me anyhow I relish the journey, good and bad. -tkyler 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloB Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ben Russell said: I can think of a couple of other product releases from last year where a "sorry guys we screwed up" apology was definitely called for. People paid good money for bad products. Your're probably right. Actually IXEG and LES saved me from burning money. You could learn from them what it takes to make a good aircraft and you could know that others must have taken a lot of shortcuts to put out an airliner or other complex aircraft almost every year... I stayed away from everything else since the Saab was released. And I was not disappointed... Flo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanary Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 15 hours ago, tkyler said: This needs to be the definite statement by IXEG as to what is "close to release"....so spread the word far and wide when folks ask! When using the word "close", you really must clarify further the relative relationship of the items described to be close. In the case of our 737, there really are two contexts in which to think of "close". We could say that: 1.) We are close to having all the features in that we want in for V1.0 2.) We are close to the release date These are NOT the same. For example, If I put 1,000,000 needles in a haystack with 10,000,000 hay needles, you will find a lot very quickly. As you get "close" to finding the last one, the time to find said last one may drag out significantly.....but you are indeed "close" to finding them all. As soon as you find the last needle, you are done. If its sooner rather than later, then you are simply done earlier. IXEG is close to "having all the features in that we want for V1.0" We are bug chasing...and we are very good at it. We are ensuring we do not have bugs that have plagued other products...we are looking far, wide and very deep for bugs in our FMS to have the greatest possible reliability when releasing. That is what we all want...that is what we have all been waiting for...that is why our team is doing it! There is a generalization that if you are "close" to finishing the feature list, then you are close to releasing...but you cannot relate the two directly. We know that as soon as we are happy with these last few features stability, we will release. could be 3 weeks, could be another 5-7, could be more......what we can tell you is that we are working very aggressively to be satisfied with the completion of our V1.0 features list and we are close to having all those features implemented. I assure you, getting it right is much more paramount than getting it out 4 weeks sooner. We are after a feature list here, not a time-frame. Take solace in knowing that we are close to having the feature list complete and quit bitching about the time frame. Relatively speaking, we're in a good spot now and kudos to those who understand and awaiting patiently, you will be rewarded! -tkyler Thanks for the update. I posted the "where for art thou" post at the weekend. I didnt do it to provoke anyone into moaning i was just generally curious. I get your point you will never be bug free or it will take an age to get there but when you release a software product there has to be a ground on which some bugs can be shippable. I find it being like falling down the rabbit hole and sometimes all your doing is bug fixing. Everything more or less has a knock on effect for software and it is a complete bitch at times. But i get what you mean having this forum here helps potential customers to start reading more and interacting as a community but it must be a good pat on the back and motivator reading all the good things people have to say and they havent even bought it yet. Cant wait for the release can you do it at a weekend please so i can use it without losing jobs lol 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vantskruv Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Only if tkyler could write code as fast as he typing in the forums. I.e., it would be interesting to compare the number of lines/letters of code with the amount typed in the forums! Keep up the good work, and I really looking forward for a release next week! And please can someone slap me in the face stopping me to be sarcastic? PS. I know the hard work behind coding, I've been working on splines mathematically (calculating radius, distance, and direction at point T, aswell as cutting them in two parts and so on) and then connecting them in a user editor. Damn, in mind it was very easy, but coding it, it was heck of a job and it took long time to get it right. And I only finished per mille of my vision. Next step seems to be worse... .DS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 it would be interesting to compare the number of lines/letters of code with the amount typed in the forums! The 737 code far outweighs it. By a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leinsters Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 The weeks will fly by! Something tells me the experience will be well worth the wait. Thanks for the update and good luck needle hunting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercwerx Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 The easiest way to get the needles out is with a magnet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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