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tkyler

FMS and Autopilot

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We want it all of course, but have to draw the line.

 

Yes, please do. At some point, decisions need to be made and packages need to be wrapped up. I've been a staunch X-Plane advocate for the past few years and have been quite vocal about it. Never have I been so depressed than of late, as looking for a great simulation of an airliner has been fruitless. Lots of pretty flyers but most are lame ducks that are all missing one important aspect or another. Incomplete studies at best.

 

I sincerely hope your offering will put an end to my quest ( sung to the tune of "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights"), the sooner the better. Lest I transgress and fall to the dark side...please don't let that happen. ;)

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Just a little headsup from the development front: This is a copy+paste from our internal Skype-chat, written by me this morning:

 

[09:30:47] Jan Vogel: ok everyone - I am just testing the latest revision, Tom has implemented a change of DEST "on the fly". I am flying over Los Angeles, changing my mind ALL THE TIME - entering new destinations (Van Nuys, LAX, Burbank, Santa Monica, etc...). The FMS is holding up beautifully - this is the way the FMS is supposed to help the pilot, being flexible, easy to use, no "kinks" to avoid...

[09:31:01] Jan Vogel: (^)  big one for Tom!

[09:31:20] Jan Vogel: I am still finding some odd bugs, totally expected, I am really doing some stupid stuff :-)

 

Just so you know we are not sitting on our thumbs, watching you squirm for a release date ;) .

 

Cheers, Jan

 

If you need someone inept, I'm always here to help ;)

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Couples of questions :

1) does the real 733' FMC has a LNAV offset feature/ wind prediction / RTA constraint

2) if yes will those be implemented in 1.0?

CMB

Sent from Tapatalk

Edited by cmbaviator

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Couples of questions : 1) does the real 733' FMC has a LNAV offset feature/ wind prediction / RTA constraint 2) if yes will those be implemented in 1.0? CMB Sent from Tapatalk

 

The real FMS has OFFSET and also RTA. I am not sure if holding patterns are adjusted for wind correction, but the rest of the routing isn´t.

 

Our FMS in the initial release version will have no OFFSET and no RTA. We plan to add those at a later time, but I think - except for the sake of completeness - these will not be missed for V1.0. These are features that are rarely if ever used (I haven´t done so for  a single time in ca. 6000 hours of 737 flight).

 

The manual says nothing about wind correction for holding patterns, and I think for most windspeeds it will be sufficient to calculate the holding pattern with 25 deg bank and then use up to 30 deg of bank to stay in the turn if the wind isn´t favourable. We will see when we fully implement holding patterns (they are not in the initial release, except for some standard holdings at the end of missed approaches).

 

Jan

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The real FMS has OFFSET and also RTA. I am not sure if holding patterns are adjusted for wind correction, but the rest of the routing isn´t.

Our FMS in the initial release version will have no OFFSET and no RTA. We plan to add those at a later time, but I think - except for the sake of completeness - these will not be missed for V1.0. These are features that are rarely if ever used (I haven´t done so for a single time in ca. 6000 hours of 737 flight).

The manual says nothing about wind correction for holding patterns, and I think for most windspeeds it will be sufficient to calculate the holding pattern with 25 deg bank and then use up to 30 deg of bank to stay in the turn if the wind isn´t favourable. We will see when we fully implement holding patterns (they are not in the initial release, except for some standard holdings at the end of missed approaches).

Jan

Thanks

Fair enough for the v1.0 features.

The offset feature is nice for avoiding cells storm without leaving LNAV mode.

Just put your offset value and for more automation enter also the enter and exit WPT. Well that's what I do for the B777 and b737 from pmdg, don't know if it's recommended to do so.

RTA, I agree, I don't even know how it fully work.

However, for wind prediction, I mean if we can enter wind prediction for more accurate optimal crz alt, ETA, estimated FOB....

I'm not planning to do a single holding, so I don't very care if you don't take in account the wind lol :)

Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

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I agree about the offset - but in reality this is mostly handled with headings. This is not only easier for the pilots and ATC, it is also more efficient (to fly a detour it is less way to fly a "triangle" as opposed to joining an offset distance and then rejoining later). But this should be no excuse for not having an offset feature, just an explanation why we decided it is ok to ship the initial version without it.

 

The RTA mode is supposed to "adjust" your speed so that you arrive at a specified fix at a specified time (RTA = required time of arrival). I have used it once on the 747-400 when we were supposed to not arrive "too early" over a fix to cross Afghanistan airspace. It didn´t work at all...

 

Yes, wind prediction for navigational purposes will be available. It will influence time and fuel predictions, climb and descent path calculation. OPT CRZ altitude calculation is not dependent on wind per se, and the FMS doesn´t adjust OPT ALT, even if multiple wind levels are known and input. OPT ALT as suggested by the FMS is based on weight and cruise speed, only. In reality a different wind level can make a less "optimum" level more desirable, of course, but the FMS won´t help you making that call.

 

Jan

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We will see when we fully implement holding patterns (they are not in the initial release, except for some standard holdings at the end of missed approaches).

 

Just to be sure so I don't misunderstand you here... it will not be possible to enter a holding pattern over a designated fix in the initial release?

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that is correct.  We are out of time for these few outstanding features for the initial release.  We do have 'hold code' and it does compensate for wind effect and you'll see this on the procedural holds.  The code is untested for nearly 2 years.  2 years ago, we flew into and entered into holds successfully, but much has changed.  We'll have to come back to it.

Edited by tkyler

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I understand your decisions but I'm still a little bit confused. What you are talking is that we won't be able to enter the holdings, right? But this means that flying the holdings will still be possible? So if a missed approach procedure has a holding pattern at the end of it and I use heading mode to bring the aircraft on the proper inbound course for the direct entry, will it then be able to fly the hold by itself?

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we hope so.    And what we mean by that is, if there is a published hold as part of the route (the magenta route), then the FMS / AP will draw/ track it, BUT we do not have entry sectors into the hold calculated/drawn.  So if the entry angle is particularly challenging and you are traveling at a high speed, it might be difficult for the AP to hold the line and get you into the pattern as the angle changes abruptly in the absence of a calculated entry path.  That being said, a direct entry should be the most reliable.

 

About a year and a half ago, during flight testing, I flew into a hold when we were developing the route tracking code....flew round and round a few times, then exited and said, "Ok, the foundation seems to be good, we'll tweak it after we get the more important parts in".....and that still holds true for published holds.  We are getting to that phase where we will look at the published hold flight performance but its still in line behind a few other milestones.

 

-tkyler

Edited by tkyler
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My sincere best wishes for the success of this project. The videos, so far, show execellent replication of the fms. It would be great if the fms can be used much like it is used in real life flying. It is a real test of programming skill and adherence to excellence. So, thanks and good luck with this product,

 

Also, has any thought gone into making the fms a separate program that could be used in other aircraft?

 

The B737-300 is on my buy list for sure.

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My sincere best wishes for the success of this project. The videos, so far, show execellent replication of the fms. It would be great if the fms can be used much like it is used in real life flying. It is a real test of programming skill and adherence to excellence. So, thanks and good luck with this product,

 

That's really the beauty of this product. It truly is study sim level in every way, even with these small left out portions Tom speaks of. And, the reason why I can justify this is because Jan has thousands of Captain seat time in the real 737-300. These items left out, in his own words, are things he rarely/almost never ended up utilizing in real day-to-day tasks flying this bird in the real world.

 

It was imperative to achieve every aspect of the simulation/FMC that he did use, and do it with great accuracy. Even better is the commitment to finish these items in a later update, even if they will essentially rarely (if ever) get used by the masses.

 

Bottom line: What you will get with this product is what real 737 Classic pilots would use on a daily basis, and simulated as they would see it in the real world. That's pretty darn cool!

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Well.. I am a little excited to say the least. After purchasing X-Plane a few years ago I found this addon being developed. I recon I must have checked the forums at least 3 times a week for updates and watched Jan's YouTube videos tens of times. Just love the amount of useful information he manages to squeeze in.

I do have a question regarding the FMC and the Progress page, has this been implemented as I don't see it used on any of the latest videos?

Many Thanks IXEG

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13 minutes ago, sirtopper said:

I do have a question regarding the FMC and the Progress page

half of it has been...and with any luck the next half will be before Saturday :)   If not, then it will be within a short time after release.  Our FMS improvements and feature implementations after release we expect to happen at a quick pace...the FMS and remaining features will be an area of heavy focus post release.  We've been known to add entire pages of functionality in well less than a week; however, we are finding the volume of information the FMS provides is pretty substantial and we just have to keep moving.  At the moment, we have the first 3 lines, with waypoint info implemented.  I'll be looking into the rest of it tomorrow time permitting.

-tkyler

Edited by tkyler
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Thanks for quick response tkyler.. I know how committed IXEG is.

There is so much to enjoy about your 737-300 it will take me months to fully appreciate all the work you guys have done.

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39 minutes ago, tkyler said:

half of it has been...and with any luck the next half will be before Saturday :)   If not, then it will be within a short time after release.  Our FMS improvements and feature implementations after release we expect to happen at a quick pace...the FMS and remaining features will be an area of heavy focus post release.  We've been known to add entire pages of functionality in well less than a week; however, we are finding the volume of information the FMS provides is pretty substantial and we just have to keep moving.  At the moment, we have the first 3 lines, with waypoint info implemented.  I'll be looking into the rest of it tomorrow time permitting.

-tkyler

Crossing my fingers :)  
I can't wait for this beast

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On 12/2/2015 at 6:24 PM, Cameron said:

 

 Even better is the commitment to finish these items in a later update, even if they will essentially rarely (if ever) get used by the masses.

 

 

Not to mention, once they have a complete and functional FMC, then it can be utilized in another project, which would cut down on development significantly.

Tim

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38 minutes ago, K4bel123 said:

So if you can't finish the progress page until release, where can I see the fuel calculation?

1. for fuel trip planning, you look at the aircraft charts (or internet planning tools) for the fuel burnt per hour according your flight parameters (weight, pressure altitude, etc.), you do some basic maths as per your trip distance +including reserves, alternate, etc and you get the total.

2. during flight, you look at fuel flow consumption display, you do the maths vs remaining distance/time and you know your fuel.

 

note: no matter fmcs does provide this information, pilots are required to do their thing to cross check. You better know how to do it, it is rewarding to have as much knowledge as possible. If it is not on Saturday, i presume it will be available on a few weeks so no big deal.

 

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