Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I understood his point and agree that there is truth in what he is saying about media reviews but the way he went about discrediting the guy as a nobody looking for some free software came off as being an elitist. I'm not going to start a debate about how to start a topic; we just don't need to. Everyone is going to have varying opinions here, and in the end all of you have to live with your own comments to a degree. As many of of you well know Ben is more cut and dry, and he had no problem explaining the type of day he was already having, but he did take the time to warn of such. You can factor that in however which way you want. As much as you may disagree and harbor the stance that this felt like "discrediting the guy as a nobody looking for some free software", that's one way to interpret it, but looking at the bigger picture objectively it is NOT what the point of Ben's statements were. I don't even have to watch that video twice to know why Ben immediately responded the way he did, and I also don't have to watch it twice to understand where Froogle is coming from. There are potentially better ways "always" when it comes to saying your piece. Let me put it this way (objectively): Froogle could have stated his side a bit less authoritatively as to who he is and why he should be 'used' in his video. This rubbed some wrong, and immediately got the reaction from some in the way that Froogle is "not as big as he seems." In that sense, it's easy to misinterpret the statement about subscription levels and the answer to prayers as a means of entitlement because of who Froogle may be. As a consumer, this does not rub someone like you the same way it may rub a developer who has been working 3+ years on a particular product(s). 15,000 subscribers is great. The exposure is welcome, but if we're going to sit down and be realistic we'll also say it's not going to be the wave that breaks the flood gates either, and this is a bigger side to where, in part, Ben is coming from. You cannot misconstrue this statement to mean that even with that said, the exposure is not welcome; it is welcome. You need to remove your personal feelings from the discussion before you can see where one's opinion is coming from and what they may mean. It's not necessarily that they don't also agree with your view about exposure, but they have other elements to consider that you may not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobofat Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 At the end of the day, developers are being asked to give somebody else a product in exchange for a review of that product. So either you are (1) a developer who has the standing to say "yes" or "no" to that request at their discretion, or you are are (2) going to pony up yourself and gift a product to this individual so he may review it. Aside from these two people, what standing do any of you have to judge what a creator chooses to do with his/her hard work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdn_Jay_Ryan Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 The guy takes the risk of saying publicly to his (if you're right mostly MSFS) audience, one of the biggest flightsim vlogs on the Tube that he believes it's probably time to give up on FSX and start exploring the potential of XPlane and you dismiss him as a nobody who's just trying to get free stuff to go with his $300 equipment?That's disappointing.Ditto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Ditto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froogle Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Ok guys, This is all getting very out of hand, or has the potential to. I appreciate the supportive sentiments expressed by some of the posters here, and I understand the point of view Cameron, Ben et al are putting forward. First up, let me say this is wholly unexpected, that my request in a V-LOG to my subscribers would suddenly explode into this and frankly it makes me a little uncomfortable. I'm used to working with companies in my work at PC Pilot and formerly at other gaming publications to contacting a PR dude and saying "Hey, we want to take a look at xyz" and it's a non-issue. The way this conversation is going honestly is making me more than a little uncomfortable and I feel painting me in a light that I'm not particularly happy with, and most certainly not a first impression I want to create within the X-Plane community. As I said in my earlier long post, if someone doesn't want to hand over a product for review or to be featured within broader X-Plane videos on my channel then that's fine. Quite a few developers have stepped forward and asked to get involved today so I have more than enough content to focus on in the near term. All the best. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) The way I see it, Froogle/Pete is trying to get support for the X-Plane community. I was so glad when he released this video, I just hope it prompts people to at least try X-Plane. I for one, bought X-Plane only a week ago. I want to see newer and better products for this platform that has tons of potential, so I purchased 2 payware aircraft (JARDesign A320, 777 Worldiner Extended) that weren't cheap. I just want to support developers in hope that they keep developing If developers did provide a review copy of a product that shows X-Plane in a good light to Froogle , he would make a really great video (or a few) that will hopefully entice people towards X-Plane. I sincerely hope that developers have the cop-on to provide review copies, it's beneficial in the long-term! Edited October 29, 2013 by Jesse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicFrawg Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Jesse, May I suggest adding the Saab340a to your hanger. You wont be disappointed. Like Pete and Cameron has said Lets move on, we are beating a dead horse now. Edited October 29, 2013 by AtomicFrawg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goran_M Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 What an interesting thread. Hi Goran - the 3 devs I contacted I suspect missed the emails because I sent from frooglesim, instead of from my normal email address. Goran you were one of them - you'll recall that the PC Pilot award badge you proudly display on your DC3 in the store was awarded by me (Peter Wright) in my review of your product some time ago. I've been trying to get updated download links for the 64 bit version as well as your new aircraft. No biggie, part of the idea of the video was to get you guys (the collective "you guys" in the X-Plane dev world to sit up) and I am resending emails and broadening their reach. Ben can sit there saying "Froogle who" all day long, but here we are in a two page thread carrying my name, so I guess it worked. Pete! I never got the email. Probably went straight to my spam folder, as you know I would have replied. Shows how much I check youtube and other forums. I think I need to do so...a lot more. Throw me another email or PM through these forums, and we can pick it up from there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCYUL Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Today is literally the first I've ever heard of this guy.seriously 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 seriously Seriously. Of course, I have through personal dealings, but to assume that everyone has is not exactly realistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCYUL Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Ben's attitude in this thread made me boot up FSX and I ended up buying some payware Thanks for putting me more in debt Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg Posted October 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Well it looks like some of the devs with the most attractive products are in contact so hopefully we can start showing XPlane shine to another audience. Cameron I'm tempted to respond to your partisan defense of Ben's posts but I have a feeling it would just rile you, get me banned and leave more people with a surprisingly unpleasant taste in their mouth. Hopefully this is one of those 'all's well that ends well' situations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Cameron I'm tempted to respond to your partisan defense of Ben's posts but I have a feeling it would just rile you, get me banned and leave more people with a surprisingly unpleasant taste in their mouth. That's a choice you make, not me. Feel free. The partisan talk is rubbish, and if you do not have the ability to take your feelings out of the equation I cannot help that. I didn't shed my opinion in this thread. I objectively answered this topic and posts. If you want to take it further, go ahead. You'll certainly hear my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baber20 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Best of luck to you Froogle. Hopefully you can make some FSX heads turn with those new upcoming X-Plane vids. Welcome to the X-Plane community. It's a pleasure to have you here ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baber20 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 That's a choice you make, not me. Feel free. The partisan talk is rubbish, and if you do not have the ability to take your feelings out of the equation I cannot help that. I didn't shed my opinion in this thread. I objectively answered this topic and posts. If you want to take it further, go ahead. You'll certainly hear my $0.02.You might want to take a look at the same thread in Avsim forum. I am not judging and certainly don't want to argue. Just take a look at the comments there regarding X-Pilot and Ben's behavior. Looks like some people don't even want to comment here after what they just saw. No matter how you try to justify Ben's posts in this thread and I am not sure if you have noticed this by now, quite alot of people have realized that his 'attitude' was really uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 You might want to take a look at the same thread in Avsim forum. I am not judging and certainly don't want to argue. Just take a look at the comments there regarding X-Pilot and Ben's behavior. Looks like some people don't even want to comment here after what they just saw. No matter how you try to justify Ben's posts in this thread and I am not sure if you have noticed this by now, quite alot of people have realized that his 'attitude' was really uncalled for. My post was not directed at you, and if you even wanted to keep up with any of this you would already know that I have actively participated in the other venue. Perhaps you should re-read my post with regards to how I would respond to the rest of your post. This isn't about taking sides or justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdn_Jay_Ryan Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 We have 12,600 registered accounts and we're just as much a nobody to him as he is to us.All the more reason to work together towards a common goal. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdn_Jay_Ryan Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 It's nearly five years since MS canned FS... I'm pretty sure a couple of videos aren't going to sway the 15,000 people that are trying to get aces re-hired by a company that cares only for pure profit.Maybe so, but what harm is there in exploring that option? He was one vlogger amongst others of course, who pushed me in the direction of X-Plane. The actual influence that finally got me to take the plunge was one of Froogle's colleagues by writing an absolutely enthralling piece in PC-Pilot last year. I even started investing in add-ons, which I never did with FSX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMAXX Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 All the more reason to work together towards a common goal. :-) Im afraid to reach out sometimes, I have seen some FSX users destroy good things in the name of their abandoned simulator. With that said Im not against Froogle but he does need to establish himself as a user of X-Plane in order to gain our trust. I have my finger on the pulse of whats going on with X-Plane and he hasn't been a part of it. A big part of what I do is keep in touch with the community. and the more I think about it Mr. Froogle needs to get his hands dirty before he gets any recognition. Guys its that simple, it really is...... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Maybe so, but what harm is there in exploring that option? He was one vlogger amongst others of course, who pushed me in the direction of X-Plane. The actual influence that finally got me to take the plunge was one of Froogle's colleagues by writing an absolutely enthralling piece in PC-Pilot last year. I even started investing in add-ons, which I never did with FSX. Sorry, man, but are you bored or something? Please don't resurrect buried posts in multiple replies. Either read the entire thread and culminate your response in a single post, or let it be. There's 69 posts in here and your pulling up the dinosaur age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg Posted October 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 That's a choice you make, not me. Feel free. The partisan talk is rubbish, and if you do not have the ability to take your feelings out of the equation I cannot help that. I didn't shed my opinion in this thread. I objectively answered this topic and posts. If you want to take it further, go ahead. You'll certainly hear my $0.02.I disagree. You're being highly partisan. Posts from you saying some in the community are possibly misinterpreting Ben's intentions and / or warning them not to let emotions get in the way, be objective and ditch the provocative language towards one of the community: 5Posts from you saying Ben is possibly misinterpreting Froogle's intentions and / or warning him not to let emotions get in the way, be objective and ditch the provocative language towards one of the community: 0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Russell Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Posts completely agreeing with me on the twin topic hosted on the org: 99% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Russell Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 http://www.martinlindstrom.com/religious-branding/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I disagree. You're being highly partisan. No, I'm not. Posts from you saying some in the community are possibly misinterpreting Ben's intentions and / or warning them not to let emotions get in the way, be objective and ditch the provocative language towards one of the community: 5 This is your own failure to be objective and see the bigger picture of where someone like Ben is coming from. Froogle can see it. Why can't you? There was no warning to anyone with the exception of the three of you who decided to name call. In this instance, your choice of words was to call Ben a "dick". Posts from you saying Ben is possibly misinterpreting Froogle's intentions and / or warning him not to let emotions get in the way, be objective and ditch the provocative language towards one of the community: 0 Um what? I have equally stated that I understand Froogle's position and original intention. The original focus here has obviously been drawn to Ben. I needn't discuss a whole lot of the other side for very logical reasons. You really need to re-assess your thoughts on this. Thus far, they are 10 degrees too far off center of intended point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg Posted October 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 No, I'm not.This is your own failure to be objective and see the bigger picture of where someone like Ben is coming from. Froogle can see it. Why can't you?There was no warning to anyone with the exception of the three of you who decided to name call. In this instance, your choice of words was to call Ben a "dick". Um what? I have equally stated that I understand Froogle's position and original intention. The original focus here has obviously been drawn to Ben. I needn't discuss a whole lot of the other side for very logical reasons. You really need to re-assess your thoughts on this. Thus far, they are 10 degrees too far off center of intended point.Yes I did call Ben a dick. I did that because when presented with two possibilities; 1) Froogle is a well-intentioned vlogger trying to get some free stuff to show Xplane in the best light or 2) Froogle is a freeloading shyster trying to deprive hardworking devs of funds just to make a name for himself and buy himself more expensive headphones, Ben chose to read intention 2. Now I do regret calling you a dick Ben, that was ill considered. I have no proof you're a dick 24hrs a day but on this occasion, I read automatically choosing to believe the worst of someone as being a dick. I should have used present continuous and not present simple. Hope that's clear.Cameron you spent a long time defending Ben and little to no time asking for objectivity about Froogle. You may feel that because others objected to Ben's posts that job was done for you, but there were also some posts supporting Ben so I don't buy this for one minute. And as for being off centre? As the topic starter I feel a bit better qualified than you to talk about its intention, and Ben dragged it so far off centre he went into the bushes with it to give it a kicking.As for devs who would like some exposure but are wary of the risk, here's a suggestion. I will use my November add on budget to buy a copy of your plane for Froogle. If you can confirm a purchase of your plane from someone watching his video of your product, you can give me a voucher for a future product here. I'm not a rich man so I can only do this win one plane, and ideally I'm looking at you Saab Goran, MU2 Tyler, and JRollon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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