Right turn pull

[pryoski]

Yes I've heard of the exaggeration of torque in XP ... however I'm quite easily able to fly hands off as long as I trim properly since I've used the Saitek X52 Pro setup I have. With my old F22 Pro Thrustmuster setup I used to have nothing but pain ... and was forever cleaning pots to try to eliminate spiking and just to hold calibration .

[ortegas]

Hello,

 

I had just purchased this A/C and was having so much trouble with the roll rate as well.  I am using the Thrustmaster Warthog series Joystick system and combat rudder pedals.  The excessive roll was proportional to throttle increase-the more throttle the more roll rate etc. Of course this causes all kinds of other issues-climb rate etc. Yes I have throttle one and throttle two set up. Setting just "throttle" did not solve. Removing calibration file from  Output folder to reset did not solve. I went to plane maker selected my A/C set one Prop to CW and the other to CCW as indicated by rick_studder and this solved my problem. Realistic?.......heck I don't know LOL.  I wish it worked right off the bat for me like some others.  Does is it feel right and fly hands off with trim? Sure does and to me that is what a sim does.......Thanks rick_studder.

 

Steve

Hey! could I have something else setup wrong and actually be the culprit....probably.  I've only had Xplane a week..............

Does yaw damper have any effect (work) in this A/C? Didn't seem to make an impact either before or after the plane maker change.  In the King Air turning on yaw damper made a big impact and I didn't need any adjustment for it. 

Edited April 13, 2013 by ortegas

[cessna729]

I had just purchased this A/C and was having so much trouble with the roll rate as well ....

Just a little patience, and practice and you won't have any problem. If  a ham fisted driver like me can make a half decent takeoff I'm sure you will be able to. The correct use of the rudder pedals will solve most of your problem (they arn't only foot rests you know) .

Edited April 21, 2013 by cessna729

[ortegas]

Hey Cessna,

I have since gone back to default settings. After lots of practice and research I am finding this A/C to be a challenge = lots of fun. :-)

I suppose having only used FSX for so long I was having an adjustment period. This was my first payware for X Plane and I'm glad I have it. After 10 hrs its like Japo32 said in another post: "Its no big Deal." I just wanted to put this out there as I don't want my last post to sound like a compromise was necessary. Definitely not. In fact to do so detracts from the whole point of this A/C.

Steve

[cessna729]

Hi Steve, I think your post was spot on and comfirms all Javier's hard work was well worth it!

cessna729.

[LA]

Hey Cessna,

I have since gone back to default settings. After lots of practice and research I am finding this A/C to be a challenge = lots of fun. :-)

I suppose having only used FSX for so long I was having an adjustment period. This was my first payware for X Plane and I'm glad I have it. After 10 hrs its like Japo32 said in another post: "Its no big Deal." I just wanted to put this out there as I don't want my last post to sound like a compromise was necessary. Definitely not. In fact to do so detracts from the whole point of this A/C.

 

 

What ever you do, to be challenged is fine. However, don't make any incorrect assumptions that a lack of "roll" in FSX...........as being unrealistic. The roll, and required aileron trim with throttle adjustments in cruise,  is an X-Plane problem that numerous models encounter. It's being looked into.... I hear.

Edited April 26, 2013 by LA

[pryoski]

The lack of roll in FSX is unrealistic. Both sims have their strengths and weaknesses ... realism isn't one of FSX's fortes.

[LA]

The lack of roll in FSX is unrealistic. Both sims have their strengths and weaknesses ... realism isn't one of FSX's fortes.

Ever flown a real P-51D Mustang?  It has plenty of torque on the ground roll. Too much throttle on a go-around, and it will roll over on it's back, quicker than you can think about it. The aileron trim setting for takeoff is "0". You set right rudder with trim, and have your right foot into the rudder pedal on that takeoff & climb. Trim it in flight, and you can let go of the stick. A friend of mine owned one. Happily, I could go up in it. My RV6 was the same way. Lot's of torque on the ground roll. It could even push the left landing gear down, especially on a touch & go, if you powered up too quickly. However, no aileron trim, and no correcting for roll in flight. I had aileron trim to balance an un-even load. That's it.

 

There is a conception, that airplanes produce a roll in flight, due to torque. And that it's always being corrected by the pilot. It's the wrong conception. I shared a hangar with a super sized Pitt's M-12 with a Russian radial engine, and large diameter three blade prop. It can do great vertical torque rolls, as the airspeed slows down, and you roll with the direction of the engine torque. Yet, it doesn't want to roll after takeoff. Just like my RV, there is always a possibility of a bit of aileron correction just as the wheels leave the ground, but that's it. You do not feel a rolling tendency in flight, nor do you have to correct against it.

 

This is a X-Plane problem, that's getting more attention lately. It shows up in many planes programmed for X-Plane. It's usually countered with opposite aileron trim (sometimes, even built in, in plane maker). But that also requires trim changes with throttle changes. In this case, FSX has it right.

[ortegas]

LA,

I made no specific statement, or assumption, regarding any characteristic of FSX. I still use it and enjoy it. In fact I made no mention of cruise flight even still, which I have no issues with thus far. My concern was with takeoff only. I have read many posts by Japo32, and others, and so far as I can tell this A/C flies as intended. And with that I am referring to, and accept, and am challenged. I have read some posts on what you mention and if there is an issue I hope it is corrected soon. If it effects this payware model, I have no idea. I think its awesome you had the opportunity to ride in a P51. I would love to myself, let alone have an airplane to call my own. :-)

Thank you.

Steve

Edited April 27, 2013 by ortegas

[pryoski]

Ever flown a real P-51D Mustang? It has plenty of torque on the ground roll.

Nope, I've never flown a real Mustang ... but the amount of torque during takeoff  for the Jetstream seems 'right' to my sim based perception, and who am I to argue when Javier reckons he's got it just about right?

In the air I still have to trim ... and I'm surprised that a real P-51 doesn't have to trim before flying hands off ... for everything I've found on the subject of gyroscopic precession says that trim is required to fly hands off ... same as the Jetstream ... I trim for level flight and I can fly hands off as well. Cheers

 

The EDIT .. btw there may very well be an issue with how X-Plane does torque (that's what the boffins seem to say anyway) ... but I think its exclusively and conveniently blamed as the bogey factor when people have troubles with aircraft handling qualities. There are definitely other factors @ play here. I used to fly X-Plane with a Saitek Cyborg EVO and it was a horrible experience ... I couldn't fly hands off whatever I did because the pots were jumpy and it never kept it's center ... since getting the X25 Pro my troubles have disappeared and my flying is as smooth as butter.

People should also tweak their calibration settings from within X-Plane to find what works for them.

On the other hand comparing FSX to X-Plane and broadly touting FSX as a paragon of realism in this instance (whether you intended to or not) was misleading I think ... I got that impression anyway .

Edited April 28, 2013 by Kris Pryo

[pryoski]

Ever flown a real P-51D Mustang?

 

Lucky you btw ... I'm very envious!

[Intrance]

Nope, I've never flown a real Mustang ... but the amount of torque during takeoff  for the Jetstream seems 'right' to my sim based perception, and who am I to argue when Javier reckons he's got it just about right?

In the air I still have to trim ... and I'm surprised that a real P-51 doesn't have to trim before flying hands off ... for everything I've found on the subject of gyroscopic precession says that trim is required to fly hands off ... same as the Jetstream ... I trim for level flight and I can fly hands off as well. Cheers

 

It's not so much the presence of torque roll, but more the amount of trim required to counter it. Sure, physics dictate that torque roll should be present with the prop config that the Jetstream has. But on the actual aircraft it's near non-existent. I've mentioned this on these forums and on different forums as well. If you've flown the actual aircraft, this simple fact ruins the simming experience. If you haven't flown the actual aircraft, you will get a wrong impression on how it would fly from this add-on.

 

The last time I tried the addon I had to set over half scale aileron and/or rudder trim for a somewhat level takeoff. In the actual aircraft, those two will usually be set to neutral for takeoff (rudder trim tab is set 7 degrees to the right if you have a neutral indication in the cockpit). You will almost never get near half scale trim deflection in normal operations. I think this is a genuine issue, whether it's the addon or X-Plane itself doesn't really matter. What does matter is that you shouldn't consider it a realistic simming experience as long as the issue exists. It's a beautiful addon, it's fun, and might be considered a challenge, it's just not realistic.

[arb65912]

I definitely go for realism and I have a simple question. Since the torque roll ( do not confuse with the spring roll  ) is so exaggerated , is there any way to change it it  in Plane maker and be done with it?

Is it just a matter of a parameter or the design itself?

 

Cheers, AJ

[Cameron]

Is it just a matter of a parameter or the design itself?

 

There are hacks you can do. Search around the forum and you can find them. X-Plane has a greater roll tendency for this product that you'd find in real life, however, it's either a some or none situation...in other words, you're not going to achieve that 100% realistic selection by parameter change that you're looking for.

[pryoski]

in addition to what Cameron said ... see what Cooley has to say in this thread about the JetStream (from post #3 onwards).

[LA]

in addition to what Cameron said ... see what Cooley has to say in this thread about the JetStream (from post #3 onwards).

I've already read what Cooley said, and just re-read it again. For starters, he doesn't have the Jetstream model. And when he's referring to trim............it appears to be pitch & yaw, which is a normal occurance. The X-Plane "roll" from torque is over done. There has been much discussion on this X-Plane "torque" problem, lately, at various forums. Planes are designed...such as single engines with an offset mount, to mostly eliminate the torque effect. Other effects, eliminate some of it too.

[LA]

The lack of roll in FSX is unrealistic. Both sims have their strengths and weaknesses ... realism isn't one of FSX's fortes.

Since we're back here..................of course it is one of FSX's fortes. Flight modeling, put in good hands, regardless if it's X-Plane or FSX can be done very well, within the limitations of desktop simulation.  And at the same time, flight models from both sims can plain suck. That's why I can't stand generalized flight model statements. It get's right down to the nitty-gritty of what specific model, and who programmed it.

[pryoski]

That's why I can't stand generalized flight model statements. It get's right down to the nitty-gritty of what specific model, and who programmed it.

 

X-Plane .. still being developed ... FSX dead buried and it's stinking carcass exhumed over and over ad-infinitum ...

I don't give a tinkers toss about FSX ... and I'm bowing out cause we've effectively derailed a perfectly good thread .

[arb65912]

There are hacks you can do. Search around the forum and you can find them. X-Plane has a greater roll tendency for this product that you'd find in real life, however, it's either a some or none situation...in other words, you're not going to achieve that 100% realistic selection by parameter change that you're looking for.

 

Cameron, thank you for the response.

After thinking a long time, I decided to leave things as they are.

 

Personally, I have no problem taking of , flying and landing JS32, I use low power on take off and some trim and adjust as needed.

 

The reason I asked was because I would like JS32 to be as close to the real deal as it can, 

 

Thank you again.  Cheers, AJ 

[cessna729]

Say what ever you like, she's still FUN TO FLY, and so I'll let her have the last word!

[LA]

X-Plane .. still being developed ... FSX dead buried and it's stinking carcass exhumed over and over ad-infinitum ...

I don't give a tinkers toss about FSX ... and I'm bowing out cause we've effectively derailed a perfectly good thread .

You can bow it. It's just a response to your statement  "The lack of roll in FSX is unrealistic".  You need to realise that I've flown many planes where  torque is very evident on the ground roll. Especially if airspeed is on the lower side, and the throttle is quickly applied (such as a touch & go). The effect is strong enough to compress the left landing gear (with a clockwise rotating prop/from the pilot's view). However, once airborne...........you're not continually trying to offset a left roll, or are you trimming for it. There may be a small amount of trim, used for imbalance, airframe issues, but the roll is pretty much eliminated by design, such as a built in engine offset.

 

As said, this is an X-Plane issue, not directly related to this plane. It applies to many others too. The short term solution is to trim with aileron, until the problem is resolved. It's not a big deal, but it isn't accurate either. And that's what I wanted to point out.................in regards to your statement above.

[Jordan P.]

Mine turns to the right to during taxi and takeoff only, butttt stops at the same heading each time?

[dainja556]

You can bow it. It's just a response to your statement  "The lack of roll in FSX is unrealistic".  You need to realise that I've flown many planes where  torque is very evident on the ground roll. Especially if airspeed is on the lower side, and the throttle is quickly applied (such as a touch & go). The effect is strong enough to compress the left landing gear (with a clockwise rotating prop/from the pilot's view). However, once airborne...........you're not continually trying to offset a left roll, or are you trimming for it. There may be a small amount of trim, used for imbalance, airframe issues, but the roll is pretty much eliminated by design, such as a built in engine offset.

 

I believe that high-torque aircraft sometimes have airframes built to fly against the torque via very minor design asymmetry.  Something like that might be difficult to build into the X-Plane flight model.