Very, Very disappointed with this purchase, NOT the scenery itself.

[Xflyboy]

I just purchased this scenery which I was enjoying until my hard-drive crashed two days ago.

I just got everything reloaded except this scenery and due to time constraints and an unexpected

hard-drive failure I was unable to back-up my scenery folders.

I was just informed by Cameron that it will cost me another $5.00 to get what I already paid for.

I just paid the $5.00 so I can get the scenery AGAIN!

This will be my last purchase of these products, I do not ABUSE my purchases, by constantly d/l them

over and over again. I am extremely disappointed that I had to pay another $5.00 for this scenery.

[Ben Russell]

Let's flip this into the real world.

You go to the store, buy a $30 item.

You come home, unloading it from the car you trip on your kids toy, fumble, it slips, you drop it, it wasn't really your fault but the device is ruined anyway.

You phone the manufacturer.

They offer to send you a new device at no cost if you'll cover the $5 shipping fee.

You agree, this is a fantastic deal, the manufacturer just gave you a completely brand new replacement for no reason at all other than they're nice.

Prove me wrong.

[Cameron]

Ed,

This comes down to a matter of economics. You purchased a product for $24.95, your product was delivered, successfully downloaded, and installed on your system. At this point it is your responsibility to backup your files, and not ours. It is simply beyond our control.

You must realize that there are multiple people involved in bringing these products to fruition, and as such the cost of business is not cheap. Perhaps if X-Aviation made sole profit on that entire $24.95 I would be more than happy to provide you with a free re-download. However, considering the multiple people involved, the unique delivery method of RealScenery product and the fact that it literally costs us for every file YOU as a customer download, as well as the ease to be under in profits because we choose to provide our products to you at a lower cost, this is simply not feasible. Other "competitors" have counter-acted this in the MSFS world by charging upwards of $150+ for certain state packages. Instead, we choose to make things more accessible to our customers, but this comes at a minor cost.

There are ways to avoid a simple $5 fee. You can backup your item or purchase a DVD in addition to the download from us. Or, you can pay $5 after an unfortunate crash on your system that was out of our control. This is a very generous offer considering the circumstances and the simple fact that if you were to try and tell a retail store you lost your product the most common answer you're going to get is to re-purchase the product at cost.

Our part of the transaction was done when you first purchased. We successfully delivered the product to you, and from there it is your responsibility.

We understand things happen. No one thought you were abusing anything. On the same token, we'd like to stay in business. Is that too much to ask?

Thanks for being a customer with X-Aviation. It is very much appreciated.

[tkyler]

it's just one of those unfortunate timing things where the timing hit you bad.  My brother flew Harriers in the Marines....slipped in under Ronald Regan and his generous military spending.  I came along a few years later trying to get a Air Force pilot slot under Clinton....after he basically shut down military spending and basically missed my calling in life.  A few years later after I was too old to become a pilot...the pendulum swung the other way and people were getting 25,000 bonuses just to join or stay in as pilots.  My brother racked up 200,000 in bonuses over 8 years while I worked for 8.00 / hour putting myself through school.  Bad things happen and 5.00  ain't bad....sure beats losing your calling or waiting 20 years for it while you raise kids.  Funny how the hard drive manufacturer has us xplane people pointing fingers at each other instead of them eh?

[Xflyboy]

I understand $%^& happens!

It just happened!

I have purchased just about every scenery product from Orbx and I only had to re-download one product more than once.

I have 99 more downloads at no additional cost.

I should've backed the product up right from the get go, MY BAD, yes, paying an additional $5.00 to re-download the product

is not to my satisfaction.

I will not be purchasing ANYMORE products for download were I don't the option to re-download when need be at no additional cost,

no big deal, my $30 will not make or break anyone.

Have a great New Year!

[whiskeyportal]

I agree with Xflyboy, it's a d/l purchase. 99% of d/l purchases have you log in so if something happens you can redownload your purchase at no cost. Too bad it wasn't backed-up, @#$t happens and it's not cool that you had to pay to re-download something you had already purchased and had showing as a purchase on your  account.

[Ben Russell]

The solution, as practiced by real business everywhere, is to simply put the price up for all customers.

Why you would elect to pay $5 more for every purchase and pretend it's not being charged, I do not understand.

I'm sure you don't want it that way either, but that's the realistic outcome.

[Kaphias]

Indi's real world analogy is absolutely correct. The issue here as i see it is simply that we're not used to having to go though this process (something lost or deleted) when that thing digital, rather than something you can actually hold.

Does X-Aviation have a "warranty" page or something similar outlining the lost item procedure, that can be seen before the product is bought? And/or a recommendation to back up your purchases to avoid cases like this where the $5 cost much be paid? You guys are blazing a new trail here, and while it may seem common sense to back up your hard drive, some people just don't understand the potential consequence until it happens to them.

[Ben Russell]

Thanks Kaphias.

We are trying to bring you both the best possible price and be directly honest with you, sorry if it causes friction.

I've been looking at some MSFS products to see where we sit with regards to pricing and data.

When doing this please keep in mind that the MSFS market is by all accounts much larger than the X-Plane market.

The margins are different when you have bigger sales numbers. Bulk buying power. etc.

So, looking at nothing more than data per dollar.

X-A Reno pack: $25 US, 2.11 GB

http://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=64

MSFS:

FS Dreamscapes - NEXTMap® ProMesh™ Mississippi: $30, 0.875 GB

FS Dreamscapes - NEXTMap® ProMesh™ Arizona: $35, 2.14 GB

FS Dreamscapes - NEXTMap® ProMesh™ California: $40, 3.04 GB

FS Dreamscapes - NEXTMap® ProMesh™ Florida: $35, 0.76 GB

FS Dreamscapes - NEXTMap® ProMesh™ Hawaii: $15, 0.15 GB

(All from here, prices rounded: http://www.flightsimstore.com/index.php?cPath=2_82_84_171&sort=3a&page=2 )

Comparing these packages is hard, and essentially useless, it is a gross simplification of the work and sales-volumes behind each price.

I have tried to pick a pack of scenery products that is a reasonable comparison in the brief 5 minutes I threw at this research. Please feel free to counter post with better examples.

My point:

MSFS has a bigger market, following standard business logic this usually allows for a generally lower cost, free-refils, super-size me rates and all that wonderful artery-clogging goodness.

They charge more for each package on average.

They have better markets, therefore better margins, _and_ they charge more?...

But this is balanced by the fact that it is expected to get a suite of buildings with your MSFS sceneries.

I do not know if the samples I point to above have this. I tried to be comparitive.

The new trail that's being blazed is similar to the airlines in that, we no longer expect to serve you food you probably wont want, in exchange we can cut the pricing.

Those that do want an in-flight meal have to "put up" with talking to the steward and exchanging a small amount of money.

I'm sorry that it irritates you. That's certainly not the intention or the majority result.

[Cameron]

I understand $%^& happens!

It just happened!

Ed (Xflyboy),

Again, I apologize you feel insulted by this. It's also very unfortunate to lose you as a customer, however, I'm confident that the way we are going about this is better for everyone in that it allows us to keep our costs down in the end. We could jack up the costs instead and offer you some free re-downloads, but given that not everyone needs that opportunity why should you have to pay for it too and stuff X-Aviation's pockets with cash?

I'm going to try and explain this as best I can so you all understand...

I'm a very fair person when it comes to doing business. Any one of the developers who deal with me and money will almost undoubtedly say the same. I'm very confident in saying this. I want to be able to offer high quality products at the lowest rates that are economical enough for everyone to make a living off of, but at the same time accessible to all of our customers. I don't like nickel and diming. As such, I'm almost too fair when it comes to even my own cut on products.

RealScenery products are unique in that they are very large and shipped on a separate server set than what our typical products (aircraft mainly) are deployed on. Unlike a typical server that has a flat rate for a set amount of allocated bandwidth, RealScenery is shipped on top tier systems that we are quite literally charged for every time you transfer a single byte of data. As such, when you come to us and ask for a re-download, you are also causing us to incur a higher charge for operating costs since we don't have a set allocated amount of bandwidth to operate off of for these scenery packs.

You are getting upset because you are quite literally asking me to pay out of my pocket for you to have another go after an already successful download. While digital goods may not feel tangible to you, the bills that come to our doorstep are, and you must realize that we cannot be responsible to pay for someone's hiccup unless the problem occurred from something we did wrong, or failed to provide. The cost to re-download the scenery products are NOT to capitalize on, but rather to forward on for the charges X-Aviation incurs for allowing you access to said files. Even if I go and download a package right now, I will end up increasing our own bill and have to pay out of my own pocket for the service offered to "ship" any given scenery to me! Consider it like FedEx of the virtual world.

Now, here are a few scenarios that come to mind that are similar in nature:

1. Go to Best Buy and purchase a DVD, CD, or Game. Bring it home, play with it for a bit, and have fun! What happens when you misplace the item and it cannot be found? What happens if someone in your family accidentally threw the item away in the trash without thinking twice to see what contents were in the box? What do you think Best Buy would tell you if you approached them with a valid receipt and told them this story? I think you know the answer here...and it's far worse than what we have even offered to you in terms of replacement cost.

2. Let's get a bit more relevant to our line of products. Let's say you like MSFS and have enjoyed your favorite add-on from PMDG. Let's take it further and say you never thought or had the time to backup your product even though you knew you needed to, and your hard drive failed. Now you need a new download and maybe even new serial numbers or keys again. Guess what happens here? Check it out: http://www.precisionmanuals.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=10

That's right...for something way less in size than what we are offering, the charge is $4.95 per item to re-activate or extend your download link.

3. Let's say you lost your software CD...X-Plane for example. Something completely out of control of the developer of the product you personally lost. When you call the developer they sympathize with your situation. They know you purchased it, and are a valid customer. They offer you a FREE CD replacement so you don't have to pay $30 again, but there's one little issue here: FedEx, UPS, or USPS want some money to ship those goods to your home! The developer asks you to cover the cost of shipping (something you also had to do when you first purchased the product), and then you're on your merry way.

Example #3 is very closely related to how we're doing business here. There is no reason that we should be made responsible to pay a bill that is incurred because a customer loses their purchase. As much as I hate to say it, responsibility is responsibility. I don't mean this in any rude form, and I sincerely do appreciate any business that has come our way through your purchases. It's a very unfortunate situation, and one that I do sympathize with. At the same time, I must be equal to all, and this re-download method has been in place for as long as we've sold the scenery, not in place for financial gain, and allows us to continue to offer as low as possible pricing to our customers.

I'd like to keep X-Aviation open and to be able to offer our customers the highest quality products at the lowest possible prices while still having a life. In order to do so, I need to be vigilant in how we serve our customers both in the price sector and customer service sector. We want to be able to continue to offer these products for a long time to come, and staying in business as a financially sound company is the first ground rule for stability. We ensure we do that so we can continue on the road to amazing products in the future.

Again, it's sad to see you go, but we do appreciate the patronage. Perhaps in the future you will change your mind and realize that nothing done here was done in greed. We love our customers and work hard to ensure we work on equal grounds. Without our customers there is no us.

I agree with Xflyboy, it's a d/l purchase. 99% of d/l purchases have you log in so if something happens you can redownload your purchase at no cost. Too bad it wasn't backed-up, @#$t happens and it's not cool that you had to pay to re-download something you had already purchased and had showing as a purchase on your  account.

Perhaps you'll understand why now.

Thanks for listening. It's been a healthy discussion, and we're more than happy to provide insight!

[N313GM]

In today's economy service is everything.  The link I provided, below, is from me.  If you read around the .ORG forum you'll see I'm not the only one with this opinion.  What we're talking about in this thread is downloading bytes (a product). It cost no more to download bytes than me replying in this thread. I'm not for or against anybody in this thread.  I'm suggesting, today, customer service will be the last one standing. As you see in my link, below, I admitted to purposely deleting the file yet they still let me re download it at no extra cost.  When I was an FS9 simmer, I was able to re-download for free (Level D).

I have one question for RealScenery.  When one purchases from you, do you let us know, before purchasing, that there will be a re-download fee?  Charging again, albeit for less, to re-download a product does not seem to be the industries norm. If you're worried about your customer downloading again to give to a friend, he/she could have spread your product with their own original copy.

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=48794

[Cameron]

In today's economy service is everything.  The link I provided, below, is from me.  If you read around the .ORG forum you'll see I'm not the only one with this opinion.

John,

I can say with confidence that you'll be hard pressed to find better customer service in this industry than with X-Aviation. With average response times to customer support tickets around 4-7 minutes I am confident we are on the top tier here. The exception is during a recognized holiday, and even then is it still very quick.

Your link to the X-Plane.org thread you took part in deals with a file that is small. An aircraft, and we treat these no different. Re-Downloads of aircraft are free on X-Aviation. You really need to go back and read my last reply above. I specifically state how the scenery packages are delivered and hosted on a much more advanced, expensive system.

What we're talking about in this thread is downloading bytes (a product). It cost no more to download bytes than me replying in this thread.

This is incredibly incorrect. Your post here cost us no more than our standard monthly hosting fee. However, the re-download for RealScenery products can often times cost us OVER the $5 re-download charge. It is NOT the same hosting solution. Aside from that, your post (1,091 bytes) is hardly the same as you suggest to something like even Reno (2,272,599,560 bytes). Nevermind the fact that we even have a product 25 times the size of that. Are you getting the picture here?

As you see in my link, below, I admitted to purposely deleting the file yet they still let me re download it at no extra cost.  When I was an FS9 simmer, I was able to re-download for free (Level D).

And, again, the same would have been extended to you with us at X-Aviation. Aircraft are a completely different animal. Furthermore, I challenge you to find a product of the same size as majority of our RealScenery pieces on the org. They don't exist.

Charging again, albeit for less, to re-download a product does not seem to be the industries norm.

One example was already posted: http://www.precisionmanuals.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=10

Others in the industry also have extended download service for up to one year which you may purchase.

Lastly, many hide the cost of these fees in their product price. Perhaps this is what you would like us to do instead?

Quick pricing examples:

Megascenery Earth Arizona State: $120/download

RealScenery Arizona State: $29.95 (Difference of $90.05)

-------------------------------

Megascenery Earth Washington State: $120/download

RealScenery Washington State: $29.95 (Difference of $90.05)

If you're worried about your customer downloading again to give to a friend, he/she could have spread your product with their own original copy.

No, that's not the worry. The worry is staying in business and offering our customers accessible prices at the same time. We'd rather keep those nasty hidden costs out and be honest with our customers so you can enjoy the products we create.

It's real simple folks: One successful download after purchase and our margins are met and we can stay in business. Re-Downloads for free and in almost every case X-Aviation has just gone in debt on that order. That's how HONESTLY low we are allowing our margins to be so YOU can have a product in your hands for cheaper cost.

Perhaps it's time to increase the prices here so the complaining stops. We can quite possibly work out a method where you get re-downloads for free after paying the initial upfront purchase price at a much higher level. I'll definitely take this into consideration, because as I see it now...perception is easily lost in what the honest man is really trying to do here. Amazing.

Thanks to all for the conversation.

[Goran_M]

Makes me wonder if people will complain about shelling out $5 for a dinosaur in x plane.

I'll give it 1 thing...it's an x plane first.

[Simmo W]

Cameron, not many customers have butted in to support your position. I DO, I think the pricing is very reasonable and same with re-downloads. I myself am yet to do my monthly backup and a $5 fee would be fine to me and a small economic signal to myself to be more diligent. How people can compare a 25mb plane file to a scenery file 100 times larger, I don't know.

Tom K- your story almost made me cry. Very open of you to mention such a strong personal story.

[Goran_M]

I had a hard drive crash in December of 09.  Because of my misplaced confidence in Windows, I never backed up my work and lost all my documents and work in progress files.  I was fortunate that the majority of my work was backed up in dropbox.  I tell you something.  I would have paid a hell of a lot more than 5 bucks to get it all back.

$5 is a small price to pay for a valuable lesson learned.

The scenery itself is MUCH cheaper than anything else out there for its size.

X-Plane.org is obviously bigger than X-Aviation.  Yes, they offer free re-downloads.  Guess what...They sell ad space on the front page.  At last notification sometime in 2009, it was $100 a month for a banner.  There are 9 banners on the front page.  $900 a month would go toward a very nice server.  Not to mention the commission Nicolas charges his developers and other payments he might receive for newsletter ad space.  And the fact that all the payware at the org is less than 100MB in size.  

Consider the $5 an insurance payment for a 2+GB file that is stored on a separate server.

[Kesomir]

I lost my PMDG B1900, but the $5 was too much to be worthwhile to me to get another download on, I was offended by that because the file is tiny and the $5 unreasonable to me, not to mention such a large proportion of what I paid.

I'd say that in this case, I can see the reasoning behind the price - it's a huge file, just a shame it's not like steam - where I can buy for peanuts and download large files many times over.

I understand that the economies are different for a small company.

I understand the reasoning behind this fee, and based on price, don't think it's an unreasonable policy.

Perhaps it's more a case of the information being a shock as this is the first user to discover this - maybe a note on the purchase page explaining that due to the large file size, re-downloads on this product are priced at x (if not there already) would help sort out expectation.

Keep up the good work, and get the products that I want to buy out - that Hawaii one for example

[Xflyboy]

Look people, first I didn't say I was being ripped-off by anyone.

I was comparing what I have purchased from other flight-sim vendors in the past, being 99% of my purchases did not require a re-downloading fee, plain & simple. I do back-up my purchases, just didn't do it as soon as it was d/l this time (lesson learned).

Paying any additional cost for something I already purchased has made me take a look at how I purchase something. I will look much more closely from here on in on my purchases. I might just have to go back to the CD/DVD purchases and without any activation of these products.

Cameron, thanks for your time and consideration regarding this topic. If you would could you close or delete this entire post, so this doesn't get beat to death.

Thanks,

ed

[Goran_M]

This will be my last purchase of these products, I do not ABUSE my purchases, by constantly d/l them

over and over again. I am extremely disappointed that I had to pay another $5.00 for this scenery.

No one is verbally bashing you.  But you said this will be your last purchase of these products.

It carries an "I'm being ripped off" tone.

We're trying to make you understand that you should not be disappointed in paying the extra $5.

We (Cameron and all the XA developers) want to do this for a while. 

In any case, have fun with Eric's scenery.  It's unlikely you will find anything that can match it.

[Xflyboy]

I didn't say ANYONE WAS bashing me, I was stating my opinion on this issue.

And as far as not purchasing anymore of these products, what I meant and didn't express clearly was.

I will not purchase anymore of these TYPE of products under these conditions, I will evaluate what I deem

fit for purchase by the means of what is involved in not having to go through this again. I hope this clears things

up. I'm not looking to "Rent" a product or to have to pay more for something in case of a unforeseen circumstance.

If this means not purchasing an add-on, so be it. I have spent thousands of dollars on flight-simming and will spend more

but only after looking more closely at how the product is being offered and it's limitations.

Like I said in the original post and subject matter, I am enjoying the scenery.

[Cameron]

I lost my PMDG B1900, but the $5 was too much to be worthwhile to me to get another download on, I was offended by that because the file is tiny and the $5 unreasonable to me, not to mention such a large proportion of what I paid.

I don't blame you here.

Perhaps it's more a case of the information being a shock as this is the first user to discover this - maybe a note on the purchase page explaining that due to the large file size, re-downloads on this product are priced at x (if not there already) would help sort out expectation.

Actually, this fee has been in place since the very first day of RealScenery products on X-Aviation...well over a year ago, and it's been discovered by many without confrontation/challenge. Most understand and agree with this fee after explanation in initial contact, so it's only now that the forum posts have started...almost two years into it.

Keep up the good work, and get the products that I want to buy out - that Hawaii one for example

Thanks! We will!

Paying any additional cost for something I already purchased has made me take a look at how I purchase something. I will look much more closely from here on in on my purchases. I might just have to go back to the CD/DVD purchases and without any activation of these products.

Ed,

The reality here is that the fee was not mandatory when you initially bought the product. You had the full on ability to back your purchase up, especially if you were enjoying the scenery as you say you were for a few days.

I'm not looking to "Rent" a product or to have to pay more for something in case of a unforeseen circumstance.

You're not renting anything. You're covering the cost that it costs for a company to serve you a file. This cost is not even something that you would have had to pay after your initial first purchase had it been properly backed up. Bandwidth is not free. Let's stop acting like it is.

Like I said in the original post and subject matter, I am enjoying the scenery.

Very happy to hear, Ed!

Cameron, thanks for your time and consideration regarding this topic. If you would could you close or delete this entire post, so this doesn't get beat to death.

Thanks,

ed

I typically do not oblige to these type of requests. However, having watched this topic now, I feel it's ran its course enough for people to have a clear understanding of what's going on and that anything more contributed here would be repetitive in nature with no progression. As such, I will close this thread but not delete it. If anyone has any objections to this or feels they have something worthwhile to contribute, please contact myself or Indi- through PM to reconsider.

The bottom line:

We appreciate everyones' business and wish to keep our costs at a minimum for our customers. We could have easily charged upwards of $60+ for this product and all others like it and still been well under competition costs as well as offered you free downloads at that price. However, we opted for making the product accessible. $24.95 + $5 re-download = $29.95 and you're still $30.05 under that $60 margin...and that's only an example price! I ask everyone to see the big picture here and really understand what is going on. This is not a nickel and diming tactic, and that should be rather clear in the context throughout this topic.

Perhaps, Ed, in time you will allow yourself to see through this experience and be a little more vigilant with your purchases regardless of where you get them. I'm pretty sure you'd be even more upset if those companies you've bought all your thousands of dollars worth of flight sim product from went out of business and you had NO way to ever retrieve what you purchased again. X-Aviation certainly does not want to end up in that category, and we're happy to assist as well as we can.

Happy 2011 to all! Be safe!